Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 130258

>>Betsy Hp:
>So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods 
for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for 
teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR 
has created and the rules she has given us.<

>>Nora:
>Okay--we have two massively different things. :)
>First of all, *there is an incantation* that one must use.  There's 
no 'Expecto Patronum!' focus-word for Occlumency.<

Betsy Hp:
But, as Lupin says, the incantation "will only work if you are 
concentrating, with all your might, on a single, very happy memory." 
(PoA scholastic hardback p. 237)

Yes, there is no single focus-word for Occlumency (I think that's 
part of what makes it such advanced magic) but the call for mental 
focus and discipline are relatively the same.  There *are* 
differences, but I wouldn't catagorize them as massive.

>>Nora:
<snip>
>A Patronus has this very specific goal.  Occlumency has a nebulous, 
difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary 
expenditure of effort.<

Betsy Hp:
Yet, it's not merely a happy memory that will do the trick.  It's 
needs to be a powerfully happy memory. And you have to be able to 
dredge it up while in the midst of a mental barrage of decidedly 
*un*happy thoughts.  But Lupin doesn't give Harry any direction as 
what *type* of happy memory to go for.  Just as Snape doesn't give 
Harry directions on how exactly to focus.  Both teachers merely tell 
Harry he has to do better.  The reason for this, I think, is that 
mental discipline is already present in a wizard or witch.  After 
all, they manifest their gifts by displaying certain mental powers;  
that which they wish to have happen, happens. (The reappearing hair, 
the shrinking sweater, the ability to bounce.)

>>Betsy Hp: 
>I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty 
your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think of 
a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical depression 
(which is essentially the affect dementors have on people)? And not 
just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy thought?<
<snip>
 
>>Nora:
>No. :)
>In part, it's because a happy memory has to be pulled out of you 
but is then projected outwards, into a physical manifestation, 
something that you can see.  Clearing your mind is a purely internal 
thing, and takes far, far more getting together with yourself than 
anything that goes outward.  Harry can make a Patronus under intense 
pressure, but I don't think he's shown himself able to do Occlumency 
under the same.<

Betsy Hp:
Okay, you'll have to quote canon if I'm going to be persuaded here.  
Because Harry *never* has a strong enough happy thought.  Not in 
PoA, anyway.  Even the thought of going to live with Sirius produces 
a mere mist.  Nothing is pulled from Harry.  Even with the 
incantation he was very nearly food for the dementors.  It was only 
the paradox of time travel that caused the Patronus to form (the 
happiness of knowing he could do it, I guess, or maybe that *he* was 
his father).

As to Occlumency, Harry *does* perform under intense pressure.  As 
Pippin points out in post # 130239 Harry succeeds in keeping Snape 
out of his mind.  He's even able to take it a step farther and enter 
into Snape's mind.  And Snape praises him for his efforts.  It's 
only when it comes to Voldemort's visions, which Voldemort has 
cunningly made to be as attractive to Harry as he can, that Harry 
fails.  Which means, to my mind, that the failure isn't Harry's 
Occlumency skills.

>>Nora:
<snip>
>No supplementary *exercises* with feedback involved, just vague 
instructions.  No meditation, no calming exercises, no puzzle 
solving, nothin'.  Just hit the kid and expect him to respond.<

Betsy Hp:
No exercises?  Nora, Snape assigns Harry nightly exercises.  That 
Harry chooses not to do them is not really Snape's fault.  I think 
you're still looking at this as a muggle discipline, and it's not.

>> -Nora is admittedly biased, but does know at least a something 
about clearing one's mind and how to teach it<

Betsy Hp:
Not to wizards and witches, you don't.  Unless you've been holding 
back on us and are actually a member of the WW. :) 

>>Jen:
>The bottom line is, when faced with a hundred dementors gliding
across the lake Harry was able to produce a fully-formed corporeal
Patronus. When faced with intrusions by the Dark Lord into his mind,
Harry was unable to use Occlumency to block them.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
But it doesn't necessarily follow that the teacher alone is to 
blame.  At least, not for his techniques.  Because Harry *does* 
learn to push those out of his mind that he doesn't want there. Or 
he gets a good start on it, at least. I again point towards Pippin's 
post. 

The breakdown seems to occur with motivation.  And yes, I do agree 
that Snape has some culpability here, as does Dumbledore, and as 
does Sirius.  All three allowed Voldemort an in.  Dumbledore did so 
by keeping secrets from Harry, Snape did so by helping Dumbledore 
keep his secrets, and Sirius did so by implying that the Occlumency 
lessons were not all that important.  (Harry was surprised that 
his "bad boy" act - the lessons were boring, no big loss - didn't 
please his Godfather, who'd been egging him on to be a bad boy from 
almost the beginning of OotP.)

>>Jen: 
>Oh, I definitely think Harry is capable of learning Occlumency.
Unfortunately, that's the single most powerful argument against
Snape's effectiveness as a teacher for this particular student.
Harry *is* capable of enormous discipline, he proved that by
throwing off the Imperius and in the Priori Incantatem scene.
Therefore, the problem in learning Occlumency had to be one of the
factors at play besides Harry's ability. Snape's teaching style,
Harry's motivation, intrusions by LV into his mind--all probably
affected his ability to learn.<

Betsy Hp:
I agree with all three of those factors.  I would say that 
Voldemort's intrusion probably had the biggest impact because it 
also affected Harry's motivation.  Snape's teaching style (or 
possibly just the fact that Snape was the teacher) did factor into 
the failure.  I'm sure Voldemort tweaked it a bit but Harry's 
distrust (a somewhat illogical distrust, fed by Sirius) of Snape was 
not a help.  However, I think what Snape tells Harry to do, the 
instructions he gives are about what Harry would have received from 
any other teacher.  (This will be an easy theory to test with the 
next book, if Harry continues Occlumency lessons under Dumbledore.)

And I think Harry's abilities only added to Snape's frustration.  As 
you said, Harry had already proven himself capable of great focus 
and mental discipline, with the Patronus, the repelling of the 
Imperius curse, and the showdown with Voldemort at the end of GoF 
(which Snape may well have witnessed).  That his mental discipline 
was so flightly when it came to keeping Voldemort out of his head 
(something that should have seemed an obvious goal) must have driven 
Snape crazy.

>>Jen:
>And regarding mental discipline, I think Lupin and Snape *both* show
signs of having excellent mental and emotional control. I find it
interesting that those two not only survived the first war, but
managed to become very skillful and powerful wizards along the way
(I believe this is how Rowling is presenting them).<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh I totally agree.  And if Harry could learn from both of them 
he'll be quite a formidable wizard.  It's part of the reason I 
really, really, really, hope Pippin is wrong about ESE!Lupin.  I'd 
like both wizards to have Harry's back.  (I really wish we could 
have witnessed Lupin's discussion with Snape regarding the 
Occlumency lessons.  How did it go, what was discussed, how did it 
conclude?  I want to know!)

Betsy Hp (a LOON! Yay!)