Teaching Styles and Motivation, (WAS: Mental Discipline in the WW )

[rbookworm46]

No: HPFGUIDX 130273

Betsy Hp:
<snip> In order to enter the WW Harry has to *believe* in magic, 
otherwise the magic doesn't work. I think this idea is more in line 
with Peter Pan's lessons in flying than in any real world meditation 
techniques.

<snip>  If we take a look at the instructions Lupin gave Harry for 
the Patronus lessons we'll see that Lupin doesn't give Harry any 
good advice as far as *how* to produce the mental state that allows 
one to conjure a Patronus. The first direction comes after Harry 
asks how to conjure a Patronus.


Bookworm:
To be more specific, Betsy, Lupin doesn't give clear directions
on how to "produce the mental state that allows one to conjure a 
Patronus."  But then, neither does Snape give clear directions on 
how to "empty the mind."  How does one think of nothing, when
as soon as you start thinking...*thoughts* are in you mind.  (Nora, 
my elephants were pink and flew around the room ;-) )

What Lupin does in give *positive encouragement*.

Lupin's comment: "You might want to select another memory, a
happy memory, I mean, to concentrate on.... That one doesn't seem to 
have been strong enough...." (PoA, p.239)

Imagine Snape's comment in a similar lesson: "Can't you
think of a better memory than that?  

Betsy: Again Harry fails, and Lupin gives further instruction:
"Ready?" [...] "Concentrating hard? All right -- go!" (ibid p.241)

<snip> Harry fails in his first attempt and Snape gives further 
instruction.

"You let me get in too far. You lost control." [...] "You managed to 
stop me eventually, though you wasted time and energy shouting. You 
must remain focused." (OoP, p.535)

Harry asks for more instruction on (I assume) repelling Snape with
his brain.

"Now, I want you to close your eyes." [...] "Clear your mind, 
Potter," said Snape's cold voice. "Let go of all emotion...." 
[...] "You're not doing it, Potter.... You will need more discipline 
than this.... Focus now...." [...]  "Let's go again... on the count 
of three... one -- two -- three -- Legilimens!" (ibid)

Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more 
instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental discipline 
required. Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry has already 
mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his mind. Whereas 
Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only happier!"


Bookworm:
Snape's directions seem to be more detailed, but they are full of 
negatives: "wasted time and energy", "You're not
doing it," "need more discipline"

Role reversal again: Lupin's imaginary instructions:
"That's good, Harry.  You did it.  Now, let's try it
again and see if you can do it using a little less effort.  Remember 
to stay calm and keep focusing."

I know which instructor's style I prefer. ;-)


Nora:
First of all, *there is an incantation* that one must use. There's 
no 'Expecto Patronum!' focus-word for Occlumency.

<Snip>

A Patronus has this very specific goal. Occlumency has a nebulous, 
difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary 
expenditure of effort.

Bookworm:
To take this a step further, a Patronus is a positive effort.  It 
produces something.  Occlumency is defensive.  You are reacting to 
someone else's action. The wizard is trying to block someone from 
reading/seeing thoughts, which IMO is much more difficult.  If 
someone is `pushing' against you, the usual reactions are to
fall back or push back.  That won't work for Occlumency. We saw 
Harry push back at Snape.  But if you don't want the Dark Lord to 
know you are hiding something from him, you can't push him out 
without him getting even more suspicious.  (Legilimency would seem 
to be much easier because it is active; you are the one in control.)

Now, having said all that, there is also a big difference in
Harry's motivation in the different lessons.  Harry *wanted* to 
learn the Patronus – he asked Lupin (a teacher he liked) to teach 
him how to defend himself.  OTOH, Harry was *told* to study with 
Snape (a teacher his despises) to block thoughts that he really 
doesn't want to block.  Even if their teaching styles were the
same and Harry liked both men, Lupin would have seemed to be a more 
successful teacher than Snape simply because Harry was motivated to 
learn the Patronus but not Occulumency.

Jen: 
I definitely agree with you [Betsy] that the teacher alone cannot 
determine a student's skill level. <snip> The Occlumency lessons 
failed to produce a positive outcome, however, so there was a 
breakdown along the way that didn't occur when Harry learned to cast 
a Patronus.

<snip> Maybe Harry would have responded better to Yoda: "Empty your 
mind, control your emotions and repel the Dark Lord you will." Heh.


Bookworm:
Didn't Yoda also say, "Mindful of your feelings you must
be." ??  Or was that Obi-Wan? <bg>

Jen:
And regarding mental discipline, I think Lupin and Snape *both* show 
signs of having excellent mental and emotional control. I find it 
interesting that those two not only survived the first war, but 
managed to become very skillful and powerful wizards along the way

Betsy Hp:
Oh I totally agree. And if Harry could learn from both of them he'll 
be quite a formidable wizard. It's part of the reason I really, 
really, really, hope Pippin is wrong about ESE!Lupin.

Bookworm:
Here's where I get to say, "Me too!" to both Jen and
Betsy.

Ravenclaw Bookworm  <who is very happy sitting on her fence until 
JKR gives us more fodder for the theory and debate mills>