Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 130456

>>Nora:
<snip>
>Occlumency is the least discrete *action* magic we've ever seen. 
Occlumency is not the act of pushing someone out of your mind so 
that they know they've been pushed out, or else it would be utterly 
ineffective for spying.<

Betsy Hp:
Aha!  Now we're getting somewhere.  Because I didn't realize you 
were coming at Occlumency from this angle.  So, Occlumency as a 
spy's tool: I buy that.  I think it's been useful for Snape.  
*However* I don't think that's what Snape is trying to teach Harry 
to do.  IIRC Snape never tells Harry, "I felt you push me out!" or 
any such thing.  In fact Snape overtly attacks Harry's mind and only 
praises Harry when Harry actively and overtly pushes him back out.  
Snape wants Harry to be efficient at pushing out intruders, but I 
don't recall any instruction that suggested he wanted Harry to be 
*subtle* about pushing out intruders.

So, I don't think Snape or Dumbledore care if Voldemort realizes he 
can't get into Harry's mind.  They just want to make sure Voldemort 
*cannot* get into Harry's mind, or if he does get in that Harry can 
recognize the intrusion and push him out.  That's how I interpert 
the lessons, anyway.

[And actually, if part of Dumbledore's plan was to get Voldemort 
desperate enough for the prophecy he'd risk going to the DoM himself 
(which I think was Dumbledore's plan) there'd be a certain advantage 
to quite noticably shutting the door on Harry, I would think.]

>>Nora:
>[This is, of course, making a small assumption that Occlumency is 
being used by Snape for spying--which I am under the impression you 
were a general partisan of.  I can't imagine how Occlumency would be 
useful in a stealth situation if the Legilimens it was being used 
against really could *tell* that it was  being used.  This is 
admitted conjecture, but if you have a way around it.  Snape had to 
have some way to keep his ass from getting fried iin the first war, 
and I can't see Voldemort not pulling out the big guns if he could 
tell someone was hiding things, even if he couldn't then tell what 
they were hiding.]<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh yes, I'm a card caring member of the Spy!Snape school of thought 
<g>.  And I do think Snape uses Occlumency for this reason.  
However, being so much more advanced at it he can use it in a much 
more subtle fashion, is my thought.  IOW Voldemort can tell if 
someone is lying merely by looking at them (another advanced 
Occlumency user), but Snape is able to block the lie from slipping 
out.  I also feel that if Voldemort did dip into Snape's mind, Snape 
wouldn't use his Occlumency to push Voldemort out, he'd use it to 
hide certain secrets he needed to keep.  For example, he may allow 
his anger and frustration with Harry (and Dumbledore's preoccupation 
with Harry) to float to the top of his mind, but cover up his worry 
for Harry's safety and his loyalty to Dumbledore.  (I'm entering the 
land of pure speculation here.)  Snape, IMO, is playing a much more 
dangerous game with Voldemort than what either Dumbledore or Snape 
wanted Harry to be involved with.  So Snape needs to call on more 
subtle uses of the Occlumency art.  Harry, again IMO, was free to 
use Occlumency as a bludgeon and was being taught to do so.

>>Nora: 
> They can banish a Dementor--which is not depression in and of 
itself (an internal phenomenon) but an external being that JKR was 
inspired to create out of her experience of depression, which 
induces a state thereof.  If depression itself were so easily 
banished, why was Sirius so unhappy all through OotP?  (Fine 
distinctions, you know.)<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Because once you get outside of magic, wizards and witches are just 
people.  So Harry can call up a Patronus, but the death of Sirius 
still depresses him.  Snape is a bang up Occlumentor, but he can 
still flip out and become an emotional wreck when confronted with 
the demons of his past.

That's part of the reason I think JKR's magic is more practical than 
spiritual; it's a tool not a character builder.

Betsy Hp