Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...)

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 130463

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:

> *However* I don't think that's what Snape is trying to teach Harry 
> to do.  IIRC Snape never tells Harry, "I felt you push me out!" or 
> any such thing.  In fact Snape overtly attacks Harry's mind and 
> only praises Harry when Harry actively and overtly pushes him back 
> out.  Snape wants Harry to be efficient at pushing out intruders, 
> but I don't recall any instruction that suggested he wanted Harry 
> to be *subtle* about pushing out intruders.

My books are currently packed, so I'm not looking at anything 
either.  I just found it to be very...interesting that Snape is very 
much aware of when he is 'in', and when he has been pushed out.  It 
seems to me that, of course, the ultimate goal is to not let someone 
in at all rather than evicting them noisily; this informs my idea of 
Occlumency as a state that one is in (solid as a rock, I cannot be 
pushed over) rather than a thing that one does (push out the 
invader!).

I would actually agree that some of it is that Snape is probably much 
better.  In my general experience of these rough types of things, 
it's much faster and more effective to not teach it as the bludgeon, 
but to approach it indirectly.

Here's another thought; since one can use Occlumency against 
Veritaserum, that also could be read as putting oneself into a 
condition rather than actively engaging in pushing out a foreign 
invader.  It could have components of both, but they're not quite the 
same thing in how you generally go about it.

> Betsy Hp:
> Because once you get outside of magic, wizards and witches are just 
> people.  So Harry can call up a Patronus, but the death of Sirius 
> still depresses him.  Snape is a bang up Occlumentor, but he can 
> still flip out and become an emotional wreck when confronted with 
> the demons of his past.
> 
> That's part of the reason I think JKR's magic is more practical 
> than spiritual; it's a tool not a character builder.

Spiritual was your word, not mine, IIRC.  I'm interested at present 
in the relationship of magic to psychological factors, which was 
illustrated with all the delightful material that you snipped 
out. :)  JKR's magic and her ethical judgement of characters is 
heavily intention-based, after all.

-Nora looks for someone to do push-hands with...anyone?