Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?)

[Chris]

No: HPFGUIDX 131719

> Finwitch:
> 
> To me this idea is horror, because there are adults who seriously 
> mistreat and even abuse children - and I believe that such are more 
> than ready to take full advantage of this sort of 'showing respect' 
> to adults to make the children co-operate with them. What are the 
> poor kids to do? How can a "yes, sir"- child refuse when an adult 
> wants to give them drugs, alcohol, food items the child is
(severely) allergic to or candy to a diabetic child... and takes 
offence at a 
> refusal?

    I have to jump in this argument just one more time. I both agree 
and disagree with Finwitch here. I agree that there are adults in the 
*real world* who would take advantage of a child like this. Predators 
that try to kidnap kids by offering them candy to get them in their 
car are a perfect example. But I don't think that is what Tonks was 
referring to. I think she means for kids to defer to adults in a more 
social setting: classrooms, on the street, in a restaurant, things 
like that. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Tonks.
    I agree that teenagers, at least in the U.S, have lost(or not 
been taught) the characteristic that adults as being older are to be 
treated with a certain amount of respect. I don't mean to say that 
children should just blindly follow the lead of adults, and to not 
question their actions when the adults are blatantly trying to lead 
them down the wrong path. However, a little deference, and perhaps 
politeness should be shown.

>snip<
> 
> As for the question authority - adolescents are *supposed* to do 
> that - to become independent adults. Besides, if the teen's in 
> a "disobey you for the sake of disobedience"-mode any smart adult 
> would then tell them to do the opposite of what they want done...

  What teen isn't like this in the real world? I respected my parents 
and any other adult I came in contact with, but there were times when 
I disagreed and showed to the adults that I did. But I did it in a 
*respectful* way. "I'm sorry Mr. SO and SO, I have to disagree with 
you." Of course I may have been shot down, but I didn't react badly 
and call the adult an idiot or anything.
 
> As for Harry vs. Snape - well, as I see it, Snape is acting like a 
> bullying adolescent not like a responsible adult. If adults want   
> that respect they must act like responsible adults - and that's    
> what I mean by earning respect.

  This is what I tried to echo in my earlier posts, and was shot down 
by a load of reasoning from Del. And now I agree with her. In the 
world of the books, Snape's actions are considered OK by the people 
in charge, DD, McG, whoever. If the kids had a real problem with it, 
they could complain to someone about it, and they may get something 
to change. But they haven't, so it doesn't.
  In the RW however, I have to agree with Finwitch. If the adult 
doesn't act like a grownup, then I at my own age would have trouble 
respecting them, much less ask a child to do so. The adult has to act 
like an adult, before he or she deserves to be treated like one. In a 
RW classroom, if there were a teacher like Snape, I would not 
recommend that the student having the problem should *go at* the 
teacher, but someone else in Authority needs to be told about the 
teacher's actions. For a child in this situation to retaliate, or to 
be disrespectful, would only get that child in more trouble. The best 
thing is to notify someone else, or even the parent.

> And yes, I do expect adults to behave first - adults have no right 
> whatsoever to insult children (as Snape is regularly doing to Harry 
> and Neville for no reason). They ought to show good example...

  We, as adults, all should expect this. In the books, it is allowed. 
In the RW, no. Any adult in the RW who acts this way toward children 
has a serious problem, and should not be allowed to be in that 
position anyway. But you have to deal with it in a smart manner. I 
have an example from my life, and it is one of the experiences that 
make me feel so strongly about this subject. 
  When I was 21, I worked in an autoparts store part-time while going 
to college. A man was at the counter, and had a little girl with him. 
He was trying to get a part, but his daughter kept bugging him, and 
pulling on his pants leg. He yelled at her multiple times, which I 
ignored...but finally, he slapped her full tilt across the face. She 
had only needed to go to the bathroom. This was the breaking point 
for me, and I told him, "You slap that girl like that again, and I'll 
do the same to you." He, of course, got haughty with me, and asked me 
to go outside. I obliged him ( I was the only manager on duty, so 
noone stopped me)and ended up kicking his ass all over the parking 
lot.
   I lost my job, but he didn't press charges. I obviously could have 
handled the situation better, but I didn't. I got my reward though, 
that little girl actually smiled at me when he dragged himself into 
his car, and they left. The point is, there are adults like this in 
varying degrees of temperament out there in the real world, and 
children don't need to be treated like this by them. Adults must NOT 
treat kids in this way, either through verbal or physical abuse, and 
they do not command respect from a child when they act in this manner.
   Yes, Snape is allowed to, and that is something we have to put up 
with while reading the books. In the RW, however, we do not.

Chris