Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?)

[Tonks]

No: HPFGUIDX 131740

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <labmystc at y...> wrote:
> > Finwitch: 
> > To me this idea is horror, because there are adults who 
seriously  mistreat and even abuse children - and I believe that 
such are more than ready to take full advantage of this sort 
of 'showing respect' to adults to make the children co-operate with 
them. (Snip)
> 
Then Chris said:
> I have to jump in this argument just one more time. (snip) But I 
don't think that is what Tonks was referring to. I think she means 
for kids to defer to adults in a more social setting: classrooms, on 
the street, in a restaurant, things like that. 


Tonks:
Well I was hoping that this discussion would die, but 
  one finial 
attempt to explain ( or maybe have the last word. Ha!! dream on. ;-))


There are two things here and we are arguing at each other.  I am 
talking about behavior in, as Chris says, a public setting such as a 
classroom.  And I think that Chris began this discussion by talking 
about feelings.  Others are talking about private situations in 
which a child should not obey and run away.  The topic that we 
started with was Snape.  Snape is in a classroom setting, which is a 
public place.  

Feeling respect for someone is one thing and I am not talking about 
that.  I am talking about how one behaves toward another. I am not 
talking about child molesters, etc.  I am sure it is difficult to 
teach a child the difference between been polite to an adult and 
going with a stranger or with your parish priest for that matter.  I 
am talking about ONE thing here, and one thing only.  Behavior in a 
classroom.

Never mind Snape's behavior.  I am responding to the concept 
that "if I don't like my teacher or *feel* respect for them that I 
do not have to treat them well".  That is what I am talking about 
and that alone.

Adults like Snape do not have a monopoly on bad behavior.  Bratty 
kids can do the same things to adults that are nice, kind people who 
are there to help them.  This is what I am talking about.  

Turn the situation around.  If the nasty person is the kid and the 
nice person is the teacher. What I think some people are saying is 
that it is OK for a kid to be a smart mouth to a teacher like 
Snape.  But the same people will argue that it is not OK for a 
teacher to be a smart mouth back to a kid who acts like Snape.  
There is a double standard here. Ya, you will say that the adult has 
to behave and the child doesn't because they are a child.  Well, 
hogs-swallow! A child past a certain age SHOULD treat their elders 
with respect. If you don't like the word respect, then say polite 
behavior instead.  Just because the adult says things that you don't 
like or is snarky doesn't mean that it is OK to do likewise. When 
you teach a child that respect depends on the *person* you are 
laying groundwork for bad behavior in the classroom. 

I have seen kids that I think would have profited by someone like 
Umbridge.  And Umbridge they deserved!!! (thinking of a situation 
from a couple of years ago which still causes strong emotions.)

I feel really strongly about this because as a mental health 
professional I have been on the receiving end of crap from 
disrespectful teenagers in a group.  It is one thing to be in a one 
to one situation such as DD and Harry when Harry was angry and 
tearing apart DD's office.  That is OK, I don't have a problem with 
that.  I am talking about behavior in a group situation with one 
person as the authority figure and the group is there for a task.  

According to the concept of *a person has to earn my respect before 
I treat them with any*, the only person who could control a group of 
kids like that would be someone like Snape or worse.  A decent NICE 
person would be eaten alive.    

In a group situation like a classroom the kids are there for a 
purpose.  A teacher should not have to spend a lot of time on 
*maintenance* issues.  They are all there for a task.  It takes away 
from the task at hand when a teacher has to first *earn their 
respect*.  Under the old school of thought, you are there to 
learn..  Shut up, sit down and listen.  Treat your teacher with 
respect. It doesn't matter *who* the teacher is. They are the person 
in authority and you treat them with respect (polite behavior), 
because you are the student and they are the teacher. This is social 
conditioning, the type that the older generation had and why, even 
today, the older generation are more respectful of others in 
general. I see nothing wrong with this system.  And from what I hear 
here about U.S. schools and what I see in the behavior of young 
people today, a little return to the old ways would be a damn good 
thing!!

Now I am going to shut up on this subject and move on, before I 
start swearing a blue streak.

Tonks_op.