Christian references (Was Re: Half-Blood Prince)

[elady25]

No: HPFGUIDX 126604


I have an amendment to this post:  Tonks said she sees the WW as 
being like the angels and th MW as being the people on earth.  I 
forgot to mention that I have always thought of the WW as bieng the 
body of Christ's church, and the MW as being the Gentiles, in a 
manner of speaking.

imamommy

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elady25" <imamommy at s...> wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > imamommy: 
> > > 
> > > Why do you suppose the HBP necessarily needs to be a type and 
> > shadow of Christ?  > 
> 
> > Tonks now:  
> > 
> > The half-blood prince could be someone alive now or in the past.  
> It could be a story about that person.  But the person that it 
refers 
> > to must be a Christ figure because of the symbolism that runs 
> > throughout the HP series.  We see so much symbolism of Christ in 
> > Harry that it led me to think that Harry was the Christ until the 
> > 5th book when he does in fact fall from grace and commits a sin.  
> 
> imamommy:
> However, many scriptural and fictional characters are Christ 
symbols 
> wtihout being perfect as he was.  The point is that they function 
in 
> a way to remind us of Christ.  One example is King David, who is a 
> type and shadow of Christ in some stories, but becomes a pretty 
good 
> example of what pride and lust can drive us to in others. 
> > 
> > Sometimes when I think of the WW and the MW, I think of the 
> > difference between those in heaven (angels) and those on earth 
> > (humans) before the death, resurrection and ascension of XC.  
Jean 
> > Danielou, S.J., in his book "The Angels and Their Mission 
> (According 
> > to the Fathers of the Church)" speaks of some of the angels 
having 
> > what might be called a pure-blood philosophy.  These angels did 
not 
> > want to be servants to humans whom they felt were below them. In 
> > this tradition Satan says "I will not pay homage to Adam" and 
when 
> > Michael was about to force me to pay homage I said "I will not 
pay 
> > homage to someone who is lower than I and who came after me." 
> > This was the sin of Satan and his followers. They would serve 
God, 
> > but not humans made in the image of God.
> > 
> > I should explain here that there was a hierarchy in heaven with 
all 
> > pure blood angels, but different stations. As far as I can figure 
> > out there were 3 levels. When Jesus assended he went above them 
all 
> > to sit at the right hand of God. (As we see later in this post 
> > Lucifer had a problem with this idea.)
> 
> imamommy:
> 
> This is a bit OT, but I have a different understanding of what 
> happened in Heaven.  According to the doctrines of my preferred 
> religion, we existed as spirit children in our Heavenly Father's 
> prescence.  Christ, or Jehovah (of the OT) was the firstborn of 
these 
> children.  Satan was another.  At some point there was a great 
> council held, and Father presented his plan of happiness:  that we 
> would come to earth to gain mortal bodies, and be tested and tried 
to 
> see if we would be obedient to him.  We would have a veil across 
our 
> minds so that we could not remember our premortal life.  We would 
> have free agency to choose good or evil. Father knew he would need 
a 
> Savior designated, so that if man fell the Savior could pay the 
price 
> for our physical and spiritual death.  Then if we repented in the 
> name of the Savior, we could return to Father's prescence.  Lucifer 
> (Satan) had another plan.  He thought we sould come to earth and be 
> constrained to only do the will of God, and he wanted all the glory 
> to be given to him.  Jehovah accepted the mission to be the Savior 
> and give the glory to Father.  Two-thirds of us chose to follow 
> Father's plan and gain a mortal life; one-third followed Lucifer 
when 
> he was cast down, and became his minions, nver to recieve a mortal 
> body and therefore a chance at exaltation.  Also, Micheal and 
Jehovah 
> were sent to form the earth.  The spirit that was Micheal became 
Adam 
> in the garden.  So I vary somewhat in theology from what you regard 
> as obvious, and I don't think there was any class distinction among 
> angels; rather I believe that angels are either spirits who have 
not 
> yet come to earth, or those who have already died.  
> 
> > When Jesus ascended back to heaven the angels that were not with 
> him 
> > on earth did not recognize him in his human form.  They had to 
ask 
> > repeatedly "who is this?" before they opened the door.  They were 
> > all shocked that God would bring his son (a half-blood Prince) 
back 
> > into heaven in his *human* body.  Jesus is known as the Prince of 
> > Peace.  And also after the resurrection and ascension, He is 
known 
> > as the King of Heaven.
> 
> imamommy:
> 
> I don't know if you are going to accept this, but there is a 
> scriptural reference in my religion that says "This is my work and 
my 
> glory:  to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." 
> (We use other texts in addition to the Bible) I would not think the 
> angels were astounded that he was ascending, but I would venture 
that 
> they were perhaps testing his knowledge before he returned to 
> Father's prescence.  (I'm not sure of the reference you are citing.)
> > 
> > Thus it is Christ who is the half-blood Prince.  All of JKR's 
work 
> > points to the Christ and the whole pure-blood clash concept has 
> > already been played out in human history when God took human form 
> > and became half God/half man in the person of Jesus.  What is 
> > perplexing is just how this will be played out in the books.
> > 
> > Tonks_op
> 
> Tonks, thanks for making your case.  I'm not saying it can't be.  
I'm 
> just saying it's not obvious in my mind that it has to be.  
Granted, 
> JKR's religious background may be more in keeping with yours, but 
> I've been amazed at how many time things have jumped out at me as 
> particular to my faith (the veil between this world and the next, 
for 
> example).  And I would think to someone without a Christian 
> background at all, they would not be as quick to accept the 
theory.  
> There is a lot of Christian symbolism, but whether intentional or 
not 
> I cannot say.  As I've said before, I think the best stories touch 
a 
> wide audience because they testify of Truth, real truth, that 
touches 
> our spirits no matter who we are.  And that's why we all love HP.
> 
> imamommy