Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 128382

SSSusan earlier:
> > At what point do we draw the line and say, "This teacher reaches 
> > *enough* students that we can consider him a GOOD teacher"?
 
Betsy:
> But isn't a statement like this once again ignoring Snape's high 
> pass rate?  

SSSusan:
Possibly.  Yet you snipped out the part where I asked whether they 
might learn BETTER with someone else.  It's never been my claim that 
no one learns from him.  It would help all of us in hashing this out 
if we had the actual stats to look at.


SSSusan earlier:  
> > I think there is plenty of evidence that Snape's style is not  
> > effective with Harry & Neville, and I believe that Hermione 
> > learns in spite of him.
 
Betsy:
> So this is three students, out of the entire Hogwarts student 
> body, and frankly, I'd argue them. 

SSSusan:
Well, you're free to argue them, but, NO, I wasn't saying ONLY these 
three.  I provided three examples; I didn't say this was the only 3 
of the entire Hogwarts student body.  We are *limited* in PoV, as we 
all know.  Yet from this limited PoV, we can already see two or 
three who are not being reached well by this teacher... and three 
for sure who've been humiliated by him.


Betsy:
> Both Neville and Harry gave the appearance of doing better then 
> they expected on their OWLs (I'm pretty sure Harry did well enough 
> to get himself into the NEWTs level class) and if they did that is 
> because Snape taught them what they needed to know.  Which would 
> mean that his style with them - though not perfect - is effective.

SSSusan:
Still doesn't counter my point, imo, which isn't that they're not 
learning at all; it's that they're not learning to their potential.  
It's my contention that what they're learning is learned in large 
part in spite of Snape's methods & treatment of them.  

Again, you have to keep in mind that when I talk about a "good" 
teacher, I'm talking about not just one who succeeds in 
disseminating information but one who brings out the MOST in his/her 
students.  There is nothing I've seen in canon which would 
demonstrate Snape has done *anything* to actually try to draw out 
the best from (at least) these three.  

Now, as Shaun might point out, there may be kids who would happen to 
thrive on what this nasty, insulting, sadistic (JKR's word) teacher 
does, but in my mind at least two of these three aren't in that 
camp. There are others who may do well by virtue of:  1) being lucky 
enough to be ignored by Snape; and 2) being frightened enough of his 
wrath-aimed-at-the-Gryffs that they work their asses off to avoid 
something similar.  But for those Gryffs themselves, I don't think 
it has the effect of drawing out their best performances.

I suspect you & I simply will never see things in quite the same 
light, and we're likely evaluating what makes a "good" teacher quite 
differently.


Betsy:
> And don't forget that Hermione, per canon, is quite picky about 
> her teachers.  When Trelawny failed to meet expectations, Hermione 
> decided she didn't need Divinations anyway and left the class.  
> When Hagrid failed to meet expectations, Hermione helped him with 
> his lesson plans.  And when Umbridge failed to meet expectations, 
> Hermione formed a study group to cover what Umbridge was failing 
> to teach.  Not once has Hermione suggested that Snape was failing 
> to meet her expectations.  Instead she constantly encourages Ron 
> and Harry to do their potion assignment.

SSSusan:
I suspect Hermione sees the value in potions over divination, 
period, regardless of who's teaching.  Snape, of course, would never 
*accept* help from Hermione.  And with Umbridge, well, it's easier 
to develop a DADA club than a Potions club -- thinking only of 
necessary materials, for one thing.  

However, you're right about her never expressing that Snape has 
failed to meet her expectations.  That begs the question:  HAS he 
met her expectations, or has she simply selected a strategy for 
surviving his class (i.e., get all your work done & try your 
hardest)?  I'll grant you that if it's the latter, and *IF* Harry & 
Neville had managed to do the same thing, it might've worked out 
better for them.  But how many kids, confronted with the treatment 
Snape's dished out, could adopt that strategy?  

Betsy:
> Oh, there's definitely room for improvement.  Probably the best 
> teacher at Hogwarts, IMO, has been Lupin.  He not only taught his 
> students, but he got them enthusiastic about his subject and 
> excited to learn.  And yes, Snape has a long way to go to achieve 
> that level of teaching, but I haven't seen any hard evidence put 
> forward that points to him being a sub-par teacher.  

SSSusan:
Aha!  We actually do have a bit of common ground here.  I think 
Lupin is an excellent counter-example to Snape, as is McGonagall.  
What we're left with is your acknowledging Snape has room for 
improvement but that he's still not sub-par.  I'm left with 
acknowledging that Snape has room for improvement, and that in 
*some* ways (e.g., knowledge) he's not sub-par, but that he's still 
not a "good" teacher in my book.

> Betsy, who's also looking forward to a NEWTs level Potions class.

SSSusan, who wholeheartedly agrees with this last statement.