Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 128388

>>Betsy:
>But isn't a statement like this once again ignoring Snape's high 
pass rate?<  
 
>>SSSusan:
>Possibly.  Yet you snipped out the part where I asked whether they 
might learn BETTER with someone else.  It's never been my claim that 
no one learns from him.  It would help all of us in hashing this out 
if we had the actual stats to look at.<

Betsy:
I snipped because I thought I answered a similar question further on 
down in the post.  Is Snape a perfect teacher? No.  So is there the 
possibility of some mythical "better" Potions teacher out there? 
Sure!  Just as I'm sure there's a mythical "better" Transfigurations 
teacher - one who gets her class really *excited* about transfiguring 
things.  I don't think *any* of JKR's teachers have achieved "perfect 
teacher" status.  However, I *do* think Dumbledore would be hard 
pressed to find a better Potion's teacher than Snape.  Someone with 
the level of expertise and the ability to force an obviously exacting 
and detail-oriented topic into young minds distracted by quidditch 
games and Hogsmead days and the latest article in WW's equivilent of 
Cosmo.

>>Betsy:
>So this is three students, out of the entire Hogwarts student 
body...< 

>>SSSusan:
<snip>
>...NO, I wasn't saying ONLY these three.  I provided three examples; 
I didn't say this was the only 3 of the entire Hogwarts student 
body.  We are *limited* in PoV, as we all know.  Yet from this 
limited PoV, we can already see two or three who are not being 
reached well by this teacher... and three for sure who've been 
humiliated by him.<

Betsy:
But again, you're ignoring the statistics we *do* have.  Snape's 
students pass the OWLs at a high rate and his classes learn at above 
average levels.  Plus, within the limited point of view is an entire 
class of Gryffindors, and yet there are only three who you claim 
Snape is not reaching.

>>SSSusan:
>Still doesn't counter my point, imo, which isn't that they're not 
learning at all; it's that they're not learning to their potential. 
It's my contention that what they're learning is learned in large 
part in spite of Snape's methods & treatment of them.<

Betsy:
I guess I'm confused about what you mean about "learning to their 
potential."  The only person in the class interested in Potions that 
we know of is Hermione. (The Slytherins are a complete unknown.)  
Everyone else seems to hate the topic and they do the homework and 
the reading in order to avoid being called out in the classroom.  
Snape is having to force information into generally reluctant minds.  
Potions is a required subject.  Most kids would probably choose not 
to take such a detail oriented, non-wand waving class.

Yes, the mythical "perfect" Potion's professor would have his class 
hanging on his every word and giddy with excitment over the next new 
potion, but realistically Snape does a darn good job keeping the kids 
motivated, alert, and learning.  I feel that the kids *are* reaching 
their full potential - they're just being dragged kicking and 
screaming to get there.

>>SSSusan: 
>Again, you have to keep in mind that when I talk about a "good" 
teacher, I'm talking about not just one who succeeds in disseminating 
information but one who brings out the MOST in his/her students.  
There is nothing I've seen in canon which would demonstrate Snape has 
done *anything* to actually try to draw out the best from (at least) 
these three.<

Betsy:
I don't think I know what you mean by bringing out the best in the 
students.  Best what?  Understanding of Potions?  Hermione has 
certainly had her knowledged stretched.  She's learned about potions 
way beyond her level based on comments made within Snape's lectures.  
She's also been challenged to be at her best with every single potion 
she makes.  Neville's best seems to be a potion that doesn't harm his 
neighbors, and IIRC his potions were fairly harmless in OotP.

Or are you talking about study habits, research ability, reading 
comprehension, etc?  Because, again, with his demanding grading, 
Snape also seems to encourage his students to do their best with the 
essays he assigns.  I believe Snape and McGonagall are the professors 
who have the reputation for giving the most difficult essay 
assignments.  So both professors are pushing their students to higher 
levels of achievment.

>>SSSusan: 
>But for those Gryffs themselves, I don't think it has the effect of 
drawing out their best performances.
>I suspect you & I simply will never see things in quite the same 
light, and we're likely evaluating what makes a "good" teacher quite 
differently.<

Betsy:
I *do* agree that Snape, if he engaged the Gryffindors better (and 
I'm *really* curious to learn how the other houses view him), would 
have a less contentious classroom.  Which could only be a good 
thing.  Though I will say that about the only student who still 
consistently challenges him is Harry (unfortunately living up to 
Snape's worst expectations - but Snape brought a lot of that on 
himself).

However, I think we do evaluate a "good" teacher differently.  I 
think if the students learn and remember their subject, you've got a 
good teacher.  If the teacher gives his students a strong 
understanding of their subject and lifts them to higher than expected 
levels, I'd bump that teacher up to "very good".  Obviously, there's 
higher to go.  But when folks say Snape is an indifferent or bad 
teacher I *really* have a hard time buying the argument.

>>SSSusan:
>I suspect Hermione sees the value in potions over divination, 
period, regardless of who's teaching.  Snape, of course, would never 
*accept* help from Hermione.  And with Umbridge, well, it's easier to 
develop a DADA club than a Potions club -- thinking only of necessary 
materials, for one thing.<

Betsy:
Hermione reacted to each sub-par teacher in a different way.  If 
Snape was sub-par Hermione would *definitely* react.  Not in any of 
the above listed ways, but I'm sure she'd figure out someway to get 
the type of education she wanted.
  
>>SSSusan: 
>However, you're right about her never expressing that Snape has 
failed to meet her expectations.  That begs the question:  HAS he met 
her expectations, or has she simply selected a strategy for surviving 
his class (i.e., get all your work done & try your hardest)?  I'll 
grant you that if it's the latter, and *IF* Harry & Neville had 
managed to do the same thing, it might've worked out better for 
them.  But how many kids, confronted with the treatment Snape's 
dished out, could adopt that strategy?<

Betsy:
Erm... any normal kid?  Seriously, that's *exactly* how you deal with 
a Snape-type teacher.  And if you reach a level where you can 
actually engage your professor on the subject they teach, you're 
golden.  I'm not exactly sure what's wrong with either that form of 
learning or that form of teaching.  

As to Hermione, I'm positive her expectations are being reached.  
She's learning things about potions she didn't know before, and she's 
been given some wonderful hints of more powerful and complex potions 
to come.  (Snape's teaching was good enough for Hermione to feel 
confident about tackling the complex polyjuice potion in CoS - and 
good enough that Hermione didn't botch it.)
 
>>SSSusan:
>Aha!  We actually do have a bit of common ground here.  I think 
Lupin is an excellent counter-example to Snape, as is McGonagall. 
What we're left with is your acknowledging Snape has room for 
improvement but that he's still not sub-par.  I'm left with 
acknowledging that Snape has room for improvement, and that in *some* 
ways (e.g., knowledge) he's not sub-par, but that he's still not 
a "good" teacher in my book.<

Betsy:
I think that sums it up beautifully. :)  And I think we'll have to 
agree to disagree.  Snape is not a perfect teacher, but he is a darn 
good one, IMO.  Sure, he has room to grow, but he's certainly one of 
the better teachers at Hogwarts. IMO, anyway.

Betsy