Moral messages (and Hagrid)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 128754


Catkind:
What I mean is, we may know Dudley was oppressing Harry, but all
Hagrid's seen is a terrified child. Dudley hasn't said a word in the
scene. Hagrid is (rightly) angry with Harry's Aunt and Uncle, and
takes it out on Dudley.

If Hagrid did somehow know what Dudley's like it would be more
excusable, although personally speaking I still find it unpleasant
that he takes out his anger on someone who's not caused it, and that
he is to some extent descending to their level.

Betsy:
Except that in order to see Hagrid's attack on Dudley the way you
do, Valky, we must take it *out* of context. If we put it back into
the surrounding scene Hagrid does not come out well at all, I'm
afraid.

" 'I AM NOT PAYING FOR SOME CRACKPOT OLD FOOL TO TEACH HIM MAGIC
TRICKS!' yelled Uncle Vernon.
"But he had finally gone too far. Hagrid seized his umbrella and
whirled it over his head, 'NEVER -' he thundered, '- INSULT - ALBUS -
DUMBLEDORE - IN - FRONT - OF - ME!'
"He brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point at
Dudley - there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a
firecracker, a sharp squeal, and the next second, Dudley was dancing
on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in
pain." (SS paperback ed. p. 59)

So we have a man verbally attack the wizard Hagrid feels a strong
allegiance to, and in retaliation Hagrid hits the man's son with a
painful and irreversable spell.


Valky:
Yeah I see the point that you have made Betsy and Catkind, When I said
context I was more alluding to the greater context of the story rather
than the scene, but I guess I kind of assumed that Dudley had mouthed
off at some stage during the night as well, I suppose I should reread
the passage before I mouth off, hey ;D
In any case I don't see what all the fuss is about turning Dudders
into a pig, Its not that vicious, and it's not really an attack on him
being 'Fat' at all. What had ever happened to poor little Dudders
before this night that could even vaguely prove that he wouldn't
benefit from a discipline in what he's become? To be quite frank, why
shouldn't we cheer Hagrid on, where else is Dudley going to get a
healthy lesson in humility? he's done him a favour IMO. But I am
pretty sure neither of you will agree with that at all, so I'm not
arguing it just stating that this is in part my veiw of the scene. 

In this way the attack is upon Vernon, where it counts, believe it or
not, The hip pocket.
 
As to wondering how they could pay for Dudley to be restored back
after being turned into a pig, well they'd have to go to Diagon Alley
wouldn't they or ask Albus (AKA crackpot) to help them, which he of
course would do. It wasn't going to be entirely irreversible I am
sure, OTOH it panned out neatly because it cost Vernon a packet
anyhow. Serve him right! And it wasn't all that much a harm to Dudley. 


Catkind:
I don't think I'm just being PC; although from a PC point of view I
think it is still a no-no to be nasty to someone about their weight
even if one does think it is due to being a lazy slob. On the other
hand, if it's about Dudley oppressing Harry, why bring his size into it?

To be honest, the scene made me dislike Hagrid instinctively when I
first read it. The rest is rationalization.

Alla
Hmmm, I was telling recently someone off list that I still have not
figured out exactly what political correctness means and when it is
good or bad to be called PC person. If your sincere reaction after
reading that scene was instinctive dislike of Hagrid, I can only
respect it. On the other hand MY sincere reaction after reading that
scene was indeed cheering Hagrid on. Does it mean that I am not being
PC here? I am not sure.

Valky: 
On the issue of Political Correctness, Alla I think it essentially a
good, but like all human things is flawed and corruptible. Like
another poster has noted, Umbridge is very much an example of the
corruptibility of P.C. Now I really wasn't trying to accuse Catkind of
corrupting the notion of Poltically Correct, really. However I did
feel that the breakdown of the situation was lopsidedly P.C. because
it assumed that Dudley should be protected from his 'Fatness',the
whole fact is he is already protected from his Fatness by his parents
and that in turn this protection is the more destructive influence on
his life, this is where P.C. can fail, as pointed out by the character
of Umbridge pressing to her students that the *only* way to defend
aginst Dark Arts is negotiation and diplomacy. Clearly this veiwpoint
gives no recognition to the fact that a killer like Voldemort could
not respond to tact unless it suited his purpose which in turn brings
the diplomat down to his level. The Moral message there is that there
is a [good] time to fight. So fighting isn't quintessentially Bad,
just as giving a child a pigs tail isn't quintessentially bad.

Tonks
When I say that Dudley represents the sin of gluttony I am not
talking primary of food. Food is there to enjoy just as other things
are to enjoy. It is the excesses that make it gluttony. And the main
point of Dudley representing gluttony isn't his eating, it is
*everything* that he does. He wants more and more. 37 or whatever
presents on his birthday aren't enough and he can't be happy with
what he has. It is the totality of what Dudley represents in the
story. 

Geoff:
> I believe there is a subtle difference between the pupils eating
well and being gluttons...
>
> My dictionary gives definitions as follows:
>
> Glutton>noun an excessively greedy eater
> Gluttony>noun habitual greed or excess in eating
>
> I think it's the /excess/ in eating that is the difference.

Laura :
Excess, but also -- notice how both definitions use the concept of
Greed. So, a glutton is someone who eats excessively, but is also
obsessive and greedy about it. Thus, Dudley's tendency to take Harry's
food, even if it makes him sick (to paraphrase PS/SS). The contrast
between Harry's experience of food when he's with the Dursley's vs.
when he comes to Hogwarts is very important, IMO. It also sheds a
rather positive light on his character -- note how he's *happy* to
share the food he gets on the Hogwarts Express with Ron.

Valky:
I really like the point that Tonks makes about the Gluttony of Dudley,
he is over-indulged to a level that you could only call disgusting. I
am a strong believer that this does more harm than good, and I think
Tonks, Geoff and Laura sum up nicely what I mean by saying that.

Dudley suffers so far as to fear allowing Harry to eat even when he
[Dudley] is beyond full. This is a tragedy in my opinion, Dudley has
no faith in himself, he suffers constantly with feelings of inadequacy
 through the actions of his parents. So much so that he fears even
that which is not a threat to his value as their child, namely Harry.
Its virtual paranoia and he is without the tools to nurture beyond it.
When Hagrid gives him a tail, he comes rather the closest he has in
canon to having to accept himself and develop courage and self
discipline, unfortunately his parents mollycoddle him and indulge him
back to his apathetic former self, but the experience I believe will
prove to have been worth its weight in gold. The Moral message there
is good comes from inside and is not guaranteed by the amount of good
that is put in from the outside.

Valky