Moral messages (and Hagrid)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 128770

 
> > Valky:
> > In any case I don't see what all the fuss is about turning Dudders
> > into a pig, Its not that vicious, and it's not really an attack on 
> > him being 'Fat' at all. What had ever happened to poor little 
> > Dudders before this night that could even vaguely prove that he 
> > wouldn't benefit from a discipline in what he's become? 



> catkind: 
> Okay, even supposing Hagrid does know what Dudley is, this
> argument doesn't really work, because Dudley doesn't know he knows. 
> If Hagrid said "let this teach yer a lesson, pickin' on poor 'Arry 
> like tha'!" then Dudley might indeed get said lesson. As it is he's
> terrified for the whole scene, he's hiding behind his parents, he's
> not showing any kind of lack of humility, or gluttony (well, he
> twitched at the sight of some sausages, but then even Harry is
> canonically starving by this point, and Harry isn't used to eating 
> as much as Dudley), and for him the punishment comes totally out of 
> the blue.

Valky:
Good points all, catkind and I do concede I really don't have canon to
continue with arguing for my above point.  But I must admit I was
gratified to see Dudley facing this adversity in this scene, it seemed
right for him to do so then and it still does now. I felt sorry for
Dudley before this scene more than after and I didn't think that it
was unhealthy or unfair for him to see that people can't always
control themselves and burden themselves for his sake like his parents
ineffably did day to day. What I mean is that he should know that he
will be OK if someone 'looks at him sideways' (in a manner of
speaking) for no apparent reason, the fact that he didn't was what
made me feel sorry for him, not the fact that somebody did.


Catkind:
> Dudley certainly needs to be taught a lesson, but I think the only
> lesson he's learned here is that wizards are powerful and frightening.  
> It has to come over to Dudley as an attack on his weight, doesn't it?
> Hagrid's calls him "yer great lump", tells Vernon "Yer great puddin'
> of a son don' need fattenin' anymore, Dursley, don' worry," and then
> gives him a pig's tail.
> 

Valky:
What you are saying is logical catkind but I really don't feel so
passionately that these things are something a person *needs* to be
protected from. Now to a great degree I advocate that people should be
respectful to each other and not deliberately cause emotional harm
through abusive words but also I factor into that that it is healthy
for people to be forgiving and able to build confidence in themselves
that the things other people say in anger won't destroy them. So to
say that Hagrid's bitter words were in honesty, he was sad and fed up
with seeing Harry suffer and he didn't try to hide it for Dudleys sake
which would be deceitful quintessentially a worse thing than speaking
out of turn. 

I am circling around the point a lot here, I think, so I'll just
suffice to say I see a moral question here that it might be bad to say
nasty things because you're angry but isn't it worse to conceal from
each other that we feel anger at all (read Petunia's pursed lips).
Dudley has suffered more than this at the hands of his repressed parents. 



> catkind: Thanks to Tonks, Geoff and Laura for the definitions of
> gluttony. 
> 
> So we have two ideas - greed, and excess.  How do we define excess?
> Eating so much that it's bad for your health? That line would be
> crossed long before Dudley's state.  In my moral code that's stupid,
> but bears its own punishment. I guess religious people are more 
> likely to rate it morally wrong, as your body is a gift from the  
> gods etc. 

Valky:
That is not my veiw of Gluttony to be precise. To define the excess
that is the quality befitting gluttony I think we should scarcely
cling to the word excess.
The problem I see with all the deadly sins is that they are sins
against oneself, they are the demons of fear that haunt us. 
The sin of Gluttony is clinging to self pity denial and hatred, as are
all the sins IMO. 

Gluttony is the fear of inadequacy the fear that all will be taken
away from you so there will never be enough to make you safe from
that. An inadequate feeling person translates well into a hungry
person and the difference between this and greed is that greed is the
fear one cannot survive without more while gluttony is the fear that
even if one has more and more it will all mean nothing or been taken
from you anyway. 
In sinning as I see it the problem is not that these things are not
true, because they generally are truth, but that the sin is **fearing
them and acting on that fear**, in extreme cases obsessively which is
particularly demonstrated by the obsessive manner in which Dudley acts
on his fears and feelings of inadequacy. 



Catkind:
> ...edit.. where the sin lies with gluttony. If I buy and eat 
> three ice-creams in a row, am I breaking this moral code or not? 
> 


Valky:
LOL I don't think this on its own really fits my above criteria, it
sounds to me a little bit like enjoying yourself. ;D