Kreacher - workable solutions?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 129027

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor"
<kempermentor at y...> wrote:
> > bboyminn wrote:
> > > I see Kreacher as a dangerous and deadly problem that must be 
> > > delt with. I would love for Hermione to woo him with kindness, 
> > > or Dumbledore to turn him with logic, but I just don't see that 
> > > happening.
 
> > Kemper replied:
> > If Dumbledore is so free with killing, why wouldn't he just kill
> > all the DE's that are in the 'public' like Lucius, Crabbe and 
> > Goyle Srs., et. al.? That would greatly decrease potential harm 
> > to the Order, and to the WW/RW public. [snip] Again, Dumbledore is
> > a man of compassion and not a man of vengence.<<


> > Rebecca:
> > I think you might have misunderstood what bboyminn was getting at. 
> > Kreacher was privy to secret Order business,

 
> Kemper now:
> No. I fully understood what bboyminn was getting at: Kreacher is a 
> threat and should be eliminated .... I can see where killing him 
> would be easy and possibly necessary, what I don't see is Dumbledore
> making the killing of Kreacher okay which is what bboyminn was
> originally  suggesting.   

bboyminn:

I wasn't suggesting that it was 'OK', I was suggesting that it was a
necessary evil. Kreacher is a dangerous, deadly, unstable,
unpredictable creature. Further, he is spiteful, vengeful, disloyal,
and malignant. If his blood doesn't flow then the blood of other more
innocent people will. This is war; war by it's very nature is a
failing of mankind. Men are force to kill or be kill, forced by dark
and terrible circumstances to do things that go against their good
nature, but do them they must. 

Kreacher is a dark, dangerous, and deadly liability, and any response
must be in proportion to the risk he poses. Now we must ask, 'What are
the possibilities to deal with such a deadly risk?'. 

I don't think giving him a Christmas blanket is going to quite be
enough, Remember he got the blanket at Christmas and betrayed Sirius 6
month later, and appeared to do so with great glee. 

I don't think putting him to work at Hogwarts is going to solve the
problem, it simply moves the problem to a different and in my opinion
more dangerous location. So, what is the solution? It's easy to know
the wrong solutions when you see them, but much harder to come up with
the 'right' one.


> Kemper continues:
>
> I CAN see another member of the order execute Kreacher without DD's 
> authority (Mad Eye and Snape come to mind ....)  
>  

bboyminn:

I can accept that possibility too. As I said in my original post, I
really don't want Dumbledore or anyone to kill Kreacher, but so far,
few truly workable alternatives have been presented. I certainly don't
envy the characters whose job it is to solve this problem.


> Back to Rebecca:
> > Killing Kreacher is a lot different than just going on a rampage 
> > against known free DEs. 

 
> Kemper again:
> Killing Kreacher is no different from killing known DEs.  They are 
> both dangerous to the Order, to the Wizarding World and to the 
> Muggle World. 

bboyminn:

Yes, but there is a difference between a confessed traitor who must
face field justice in war time, and suspected DE's; even when you
suspect the DE's with an extremely high degree of certainty.
Dumbledore does have some sense of justice, so I can't see him
wandering the streets casually executing anyone and everyone he
suspects is a DE. They must be proven guilty of a crime, and it is for
society through the courts to determine the punishment. But Kreacher
is know for an ablsolute fact to have betrayed his Master, to put the
one person closest to his master in moral peril, and to have set into
action a sequence of events that lead to his own Masters death.
Kreacher is not 'suspected' of anything; his actions are a known fact. 

Perhaps, I have inadvertantly come up with the solution to Kreacher's
actions. Now that Dumbledore is back in favor with the Ministry again,
he can turn Kreacher over to the Committee for the Disposal of
Dangerous Creatures (or whatever it's called), and let them hand out
the appropriate punishment. If they would kill Buckbeak for scratcing
Draco's arm, then certainly Kreacher would get the chopping block.
Unfortunatley, to turn Kreacher over the the Committee would mean
revealing certain facts about Sirius and the last couple of years that
would not reflect to well on the Order; all those questions about
haboring a fugitive, the messy affair resolving the Black Estate, and
actually proving Sirius is dead, no body after all.

> Kemper continues:
>
> I did notice that Dumbledore *does* something in the DoM.  Notice 
> that he didn't kill any of them though he could have and that they, 
> the DEs, have committed heinous and, mostly, unpunished crimes for a 
> long time; some of those crimes would result in government
> sanctioned executions in few (or one?) first world nations. 
> 
> Again, what I'm saying is that DD would never allow Kreacher's 
> execution.  If Kreacher is to be executed, it will be by another 
> member behind DD's back.
> 
> Hope my ideas are clearer,
> Kemper

bboyminn:

Again, regarding Dumbledore's treatment of the captured DE's, I don't
think that Dumbledore see it as his job to be judge, jury, and
executioner; he rightly turns the matter over to the authorities. The
Kreacher situation can't, in my opinion, be put in the same class as
the DE's. 

Kreacher is an admitted traitor, he is an on-going and immediate
threat, and he must be dealt with, but HOW? I am only suggesting
possible solutions, and the most obvious possible solution it for
Dumbledore, or as you suggest, a member of the Order to 'dispatch' him
with extreme prejudice.

As I said in my original post, I don't want anyone, least of all
Dumbledore to kill the elf, but I've yet to see a better solution.
Other mentioned the possibility of Kreacher himself saving everyone
the problem by taking matters into his own hands. That has some
potential, even though it's still a dark and sad story. 

I this vein, I could see Kreacher as being very miserable with his
existance. He continued to stay at Grimmauld Place because he had no
choice, as long as Sirius Black lived, like it or not, he was bound to
Sirius as the new patriarch of the House of Black; a situation that,
given his loyalty to Mrs. Black, he hated greatly. 

Now that Sirius is dead, and the Black bloodline has ended, Kreacher
is free; he's old, miserable, deranged, and unstable, but free. With
that freedom, his obligations have ended, now bound to no one and
nothing, he sought welcomed relief by joining his ancestors. A sad,
but workable solution for all.

Again, I'm open to any alternative solutions, it's just that, up until
this most recent discussion, no one has presented any workable
solutions given the true magnitude of the problem.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn