Kreacher - workable solutions?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 129052

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor"
<kempermentor at y...> wrote:
> bboyminn:
> ... I don't think that Dumbledore see it as his job to be judge, 
> jury, and executioner; he rightly turns the (DE) matter over to the 
> authorities. The Kreacher situation can't, in my opinion, be put in
> the same class as the DE's.
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> If you see the necessity for Dumbledore to execute Kreacher, you see 
> Dumbledore as judge and jury.  Dumbledore has reason to kill 
> Bellatrix in the Death Chamber, as he witnessed her kill Sirius.  
> 

bboyminn now replies:

You make some very good points, and from your perspective, I actually
agree with them, but obviously, I'm coming at it from a different
perspective. 

There is a big difference between enemies on the loose and a traitor
in the midst. Enemies are dangerous, but when the enemy is among you,
and privileged to inside information, and in addition, knows who your
secret spies are, and is a known traitor, and on top of everything
else is completely unstable, it becomes a completely different
circumstance. That's why I say the DE's aren't a fair analogy to
Kreacher situation.


> bboyminn earlier:
> This is war; war by it's very nature is a failing of mankind. Men 
> are force to kill or be kill, forced by dark and terrible 
> circumstances to do things that go against their good nature, but do
> them they must.

> Back to Kemper:
> Military rules of engagement allow for Dumbledore to open fire (use
> a wand and kill) any and all of the enemy ... in a just manner 
> because the enemy (DEs) attacked ... (children) and killed a fellow
> soldier (Sirius). But he Dumbledore chooses not to kill even though
> he has every military right to do so ....
> 

bboyminn:

Nitpicking here, but even though we are generally at war, we are not
specifically at war, so 'rules of engagement' don't quite apply the
way they would in a 'front lines' type of battle. 

Your point is still well made, some fair argument could be made for
Dumbledore blasting his way in and killing every bad guy in sight, but
I think you make the point earlier that 'killing every bad guy in
sight' is not Dumbledore's style; on that I agree.

We can even look at Sirius's comments about Mad Eye Moody, despite the
apparent blanket order to take out any and all bad guys in the first
war via Crouch's authorization of Unforgivables, Moody would only use
the AK as a last resort. If possible, he always brought them back
alive. In a sense we are seeing both Dumbledore and Moody taking the
moral high ground.

Again, I'm looking for a solution that is in proportion to the
magnitude of the problem, and Kreacher, I would rate as a very HIGH
magnitude problem. Of course, JKR may just have Kreacher fade away
never to be seen or heard from again. Though I said it, I'm not sure I
believe it. Kreacher has too high a profile to just disappear from the
 storyline.

> Kemper continues:
>
> The workable alternative for Kreacher are:
> 
> 1. Snape poisons Kreacher (to protect himself?),
> 2. Mad Eye AKs him (to protect the order),
> 3. Phineas' orders Kreacher to commit suicide (he listens to Mrs. 
> Blacks portrait
 why not Phineas),
> 4. Kreacher escapes when he feels the magical bind to the family
> lift upon Sirius' death (do we actually think he'll stick around?).
> 
> 
 I like the first one or the last one.  The first one for even more 
> Snape conspiracy (ESE? or ESGood?).  The last for my little 
> prediction: Dobby joins the Order and needs his equivalent on the 
> other side to fight during the storming of Hogwarts in book 7.  You 
> heard it hear first

> 
> Are those workable alternatives?
> 
> Kemper

bboyminn:

I still have a gut feeling that Kreacher is dead or soon will be, and
I admit I resist Dumbledore killing him, or causing his death, none
the less, I can see it happening that way. 

Right now, I'm leaning more toward the Kreacher dead by his own hand
idea. That saves us a lot of sticky moral questions. 

Although, I do like the idea of Kreacher becoming Dobby's own personal
antagonist. I think that would make a great side plot, but I fear that
we have created so many side plots that it's next to impossible to
resolve them all in only two more books. Still, Dobby vs Kreacher
might have some good possibilities.

As far as Snape disposing of Kreacher, certainly Snape is at great
risk, but I have always speculated that Voldemort sent Snape to
Dumbledore to pretend to join the good side, but in reality so he
could spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. This whole double agent thing
gets a little tricky, but I have very strong feeling in favor of it.
It certainly explains how and why Snape can continue to work for
Dumbledore and still be able to spy on Voldemort. None the less, if
Snape is a double agent (or triple agent or whatever), Voldemort is
not going to freak out when he finds out that Snape is working for
Dumbledore because that is exactly what Voldemort expects Snape to
pretend to do.

If Kreacher just runs off and escapes, runs to the Forbiden Forest or
where ever, but not to Lestrange or Malfoy's, that gets him out of the
picture for now, but if that happens, I have to believe Kreacher will
return at some point to make trouble.

Regardless of how you slice it and dice it, Kreacher does present a
trick moral dilemma. He is too dangerous to live, but can we really
sully the moral character of the good guys by killing him? 

Only time will tell.

Steve/bboyminn