[HPforGrownups] Re: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP?

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 129343

bboyminn:
> I think you missed the point. Snape in a sense is a double-double
> agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a double agent,
> Dumbledore turned around and sent Snape back Voldemort as a double
> agent; hence, double-double agent.
>
> Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to spy on Dumbledore, now how he
> was able to do that is by Snape offering to Spy on Voldemort for
> Dumbledore. That's how Snape initially gained Dumbledore's trust.

    Kathy Writes:
          But Steve, nothing in the books says that Voldemort sent Snape anywhere.  All we know is that Snape wears the Dark Mark and
that he was a Deatheater.  We also know that Snape was a spy since 
before the first fall of Voldemort.  Voldemort would not have known at that time that Snape was a spy unless Peter Pettigrew told him  We know that the Order believed that they had a spy in their midst.  Nothing says that it was Snape.  The books lead us to believe that it was actually Pettigrew who provided information.

> snip
>
> Even further, each side can expect as part of the spy game, that Snape
> will betray them. Ideally, it will be an orchestrated betrayal.
> Dumbledore will send Snape to Voldemort with what appears to be vital
> inside information. Voldemort will turn around and send Snape back to
> Dumbledore with what appears to be vital DE information. Both sides
> are using Snape as a chess piece to gain inside information while at
> the same time disseminating misinformation.

Kathy writes:

If both sides are sending false information to the other in the 
hope of using Snape to further their own ends, what earthly use is this? They should both automatically assume that whatever information Snape is bringing both of them is misinformation.  Why would Snape bother?  Why would either Dumbledore or Voldemort bother?  It would just take time out of their busy days to make up
believable disinformation that they know will be proven false 
thereby eliminating Snape's usefulness as a spy.

> The Philosopher's Stone and Quirrel are also irrelevant because
> Voldemort never revealed himself to Snape. Snape had no way of knowing
> he was working against Voldemort, so there is no way Voldemort can
> consider that a betrayal; annoying, irritating, infuriating - yes, but
> not a betrayal.

Kathy writes:

If you were a weak, vulnerable wizard, would you not approach 
what you believed to be a valuable helper?  If Voldemort believed that Snape was loyal to him, he would have been the first person 
Quirrel/Voldemort approached for assistance in stealing the stone.  He would have no reason to avoid Snape unless he had been told that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore.


> It's likely that Malfoy being one of the few DE's with a shread of
> intelligence was one of the few upper level DE that was aware of
> Voldemort's plan and of what Snape was doing. So, to some extent,
> Malfoy would have kept other more skeptical people off Snape's back.

Kathy writes:
I think, considering that Malfoy ran away from the Dark Mark 
during the Muggle-baiting, as did the others, that it is a pretty good indication that none of the Deatheaters, except for Crouch and the Lestranges perhaps, are particularly happy to see Voldemort back.  They have all grown up, have children of their own, and have returned to Voldemort out of fear rather than faith.  Even Voldemort says he has only one faithful servant.  The only indication we are given in the books that Snape has a relationship with any of the Deatheaters is when Malfoy was obliged to buy new brooms for the Slytherin team to get his son on as Seeker, and Umbridge's remark about the good things Malfoy had to say about Snape.  Malfoy is more likely to be playing both ends against the middle than Snape. All of the Deatheaters would have felt the mark change and all would have come to some agreement as to what they were going to do when V. returned.  They would have been caught between a rock and a hard place.  Some of them may well have been relieved at being sent to Azkaban.  They were safe from Voldemort's demands.  Snape, on the other hand has a respected place with Dumbledore, he doesn't have to put up with Voldemort other than staying out of harms way,  he is respected in the Order, he has no family to be threatened that we know of and really  no reason to risk his Slytherin neck by going back to Voldemort.

> snips   

> Steve writes:

> My main point is that by being a double-double agent (or whatever)
> Snape's APPARENT loyalties are meaningless because they are expected
> as part of the game. It's this presents of /apparent/ loyalties and
> the ambiguity of true loyalties that allows Snape to be a spy. Once
> again, we can give no weight to Snape's displays of loyalty to either
> side because that is how the game is played.
>
> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.


Kathy writes:
Definitely stick to it.  You might be right.  There are clues 
and suggestions that could go either way.  I just believe  the simplest explanation is more likely than the double agent, double-double agent spy theory.  Snape would have to convince Malfoy to get him back in which would risk Malfoy's precious neck.  He would then have to convince Voldemort that he truly was loyal, that he had been waiting for thirteen years, selflessly waiting for the chance to spy on Dumbledore, apologise profusely for screwing up the Stone deal, 
convince  him that Crouch was wrong about his loyalties, that Pettigrew was wrong about his loyalties, and that he didn't mean to show the Minister his Mark as a confirmation of a warning, and that Dumbledore was fooled into thinking him a spy.  Please let me have more faith in JKR than that.
     Thank you for a lovely  argument.

     KJ