Kristen: Snape, Spies, War, and Good Slytherin

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 129336

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kgpopp" <kgpopp at y...> wrote:
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > I think you missed the point. Snape in a sense is a double-double
> > agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a double agent,
> > Dumbledore turned around and sent Snape back Voldemort as a double
> > agent; hence, double-double agent. 
> > 
> > Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to spy on Dumbledore, now how
> > he was able to do that is by Snape offering to Spy on Voldemort 
> > for Dumbledore. That's how Snape initially gained Dumbledore's 
> > trust.
> >  ...edited...
> > 
> > Displays of loyalty to either side by Snape mean nothing, because
> > those displays of loyalty are exactly what the other side expects
> > Snape to do.

 
> Kristen:  
> Steve Per usual your post has me thinking; and agree with the logic 
> of you argument for Snape's behavior as a double agent/triple agent.

bboyminn:

Keep in mind that the foundation of my theory is to explain how Snape
was now able to return to Voldemort. Other explanation dealing with
this issue are have either been unrealistically fanciful, or have
completely denied the Snape has returned to Voldemort in any capacity.
My explanation makes it simple and easy for Snape to return to
Voldemort. It explains away every unexplanable aspect.


> Kristen continues:  
> However, it is based on very big assumption that Voldemort sent 
> Snape to spy on Dumbledore. Since there is no canon to reference it 
> leaves me wondering a few things

> 1. What reason could Voldemort have told Double!Agent!Snape to give 
> to Dumbledore, to make DD believe that Snape had turned or could be 
> trusted?    
> 2. Did Snape take the double agent assignment planning to betray the 
> Dark lord or did something happen later that turned him?   And what 
> made him turn.
> 3. And of course the thing we all wonder how did Snape convince 
> Dumbledore that he can be trusted?   And Can he?
> 4. And last but not least does Voldemort still think Snape is 
> playing double agent and if so why does Voldemort still trust Snape?
> 


bboyminn:

I believe that Snape slowly infiltrated Dumbledore's organization.
Although 'infiltrated' might be a misnomer. Dumbledore knew from the
beginning that Snape was a Death Eater. At first Snape passed small
bit of information through a intermediary. As the information proved
reliable and valuable, Dumbledore's trust grew.

Then at some point, some critical event occurred that both pushed
Snape firmly to the good side, and cemented Dumbledore's trust in him.
I feel strongly that this had something to do with the Potters, and
more significantly, something to do with Lily. Although, I'm not quite
sure I buy the 'Snape Loved Lily' idea in the romantic sense, though I
highly suspect, the KEY event was related to that very thing.

The KEY Event could have been related to Voldemort specifically coming
after the Potters with the intent of also getting rid of Harry. Snape
could not bare the idea of Lily being killed or being so emotionally
devistated, so he revealed Voldemort's plan to Dumbledore. As a spy
for Voldemort, Snape would have only leaked information that Voldemort
intended Dumbledore to have. But the planned attack on Lily and Harry
was more than Snape could take. Giving away this plan, was enough to
convince Dumbledore of the validity of Snape's new found allegiance.

This 'Snape cared for Lily' is the most common scenario, although it
could have been something else. None the less, it illustrates the
principle nicely. Some major event occurred that solitified Snape for
Dumbledore and against Voldemort. 

That addesses, to some extent, your points 1.) and 3.).

Obviously to your second point, Snape did not start out planning to
truly join the good side, but something happened, renewed kindness by
Lily or whatever, that made Snape see the error of his ways. Then some
'key event' solidified Snape position on Dumbledore's side.

On point four, NO Voldemort does NOT fully trust Snape. But for now,
Snape is valuable and continues to serve as a pawn in his game. I
highly suspect that when Snape first return to Voldemort after his
rebirth, Voldemort very strongly emphasized the point of the high
price of disloyalty to Voldemort, and re-enforced his point with a
series of Pain Curses just to make sure Snape didn't misunderstand. 

It seems reasonable that after all this time, Voldemort would have
some degree of uncertainty about Snape's true loyalties, but as long
as Snape can be used productively, I think he is willing to accept
him, though cautiously.

I do believe at some point, Snape will be called upon to make a major
demonstration of his loyalty to Voldemort. I envision a scene in which
Harry is captured by Voldemort (or perhaps just DEs) and Snape is
given the privilege of torturing Harry. Something Snape would be force
to do with great apparent glee and malice. Though ultimately and
eventually, Snape will give his own life to help Harry and friends
escape from Voldemort. 

Regardless of the circumstances, I do believe at some point Voldemort
will force Snape to prove himself. Again, this is all part of the Spy
Game, and Dumbledreo will have to accept this apparent betrayal as
just that, part of the game.
 

> 
> Kristen Again:
> However, there are 2 things that make me think that if Snape was 
> playing a triple agent the jig is up:
> 1. Voldemort tortured and controlled Barty Crouch Sr. for several 
> months. I think that somewhere in that time Barty would have shared 
> with Voldemort what ever testimony Dumbledore gave on Snape. Now I 
> know what you're thinking here 
 That if Snape is a double agent 
> then this was part of the act so Voldemort would not care. But what 
> if Dumbledore had to share the real reason Snape turned not the fake 
> reason  (Assuming they are different).

bboyminn:
I don't think Snape was actually put on trial, so there was no public
testimony. I think behind the scenes, Dumbledore explained that Snape
had spied for the good side and had proven himself valuable. But, as
is typical of Dumbledore, I don't think he provided any more details
than he was forced to. Dumbledore has a habit of giving very terse
explanations.

So, beyond what Voldemort already knew, I'm not sure how much Mr.
Crouch could have told him. Given Dumbledore's habit, I don't think he
spoke specifically of the Key Event that solidified Snape on the good
side and further solidified Dumbledore's trust. Dumbledore likes to
stick with the big picture and keep the details to himself. In
addition, Dumbledore already suspected Voldemort could return, so he
would have had reason to protect Snape's position.

You do have a valid point, but I think Dumbledore may have foreseen
the return of Voldemort and done his best to protect Snape, and that
would have given Mr. Crouch little in the way of valuable inside
information.


> Kristen continues: 
> 2. When Voldemort comebacks and addresses the DE, there is a spot in 
> the circle where 6 are missing and he says  " ... One who I believe
> has left me forever 
he will  be killed, of course 
 ...."   
> 
> I assume the coward is Karkaroff', the 1 who left is Snape, and the 
> faithful servant is Barty Crouch Jr.  Now it could be that Voldemort 
> thinks Snape is the coward and Karkaroff  the one who left. 
> ..edited..  
> 
> So if Snape is double/triple agent man 
. that leaves me wondering 
> is Voldemort playing Snape?
> 
> Kristen

bboyminn:

No, I think Snape is the 'one who left', but the key word in that
statement is 'believe'; '...the one I BELIEVE has left me forever...'.
That expresses an element of doubt. It's like saying the one who I
/assume/ has left me forever, or the one I /think might/ have left me
forever. 

Voldemort can reasonable express his doubts at that time, because
Snape did not return, he did no come to the graveyard when called. But
Snape has reasonable and valid excuses for not coming. First, he was
at Hogwarts, not an easy place to get out of. Second, if Snape plans
to continue to spy on and for Voldemort, he can not abandon Dumbledore
in a time of crisis. To do so would have blown his cover. 

I can easly see Snape approaching Malfoy after the fact for details,
and making arrangements to meet with Voldemort to pledge his loyalty.
Snape can reasonably explain away any doubts that Voldemort might
have. And in addition, it seems reasonable that Malfoy would confirm
Snape's on-going loyalty to Voldemort and the belief in the
superiority of Blood. Since, Snape is a superb Occlumens, Voldemort
would not be able to detect any falsehood in Snape statements.

Now to conclude with your last point, Voldemort is playing Snape like
a cheap fiddle, but then Voldemort is playing everyone. This pureblood
nonsense is simply a way to rally the troops and appease the masses.
Voldemort believes in one and only one thing - POWER; he wants it all,
and the price be damned.

I've said many times before that if Voldemort wins, the wizard world
is in for some dark and dreary times. I see a world in ruins;
infrastructure destroyed, economy destroyed, international trade
destroyed, a completely chaotic disfunctional world that will ever
spiral into deeper disfunction as Voldemort becomes more brutal in his
efforts to maintain control. It's a world rampant with corruption and
cruelty. All you have to do is look at every real-world situation of
similar inception to see how much truth there is in that statement.

I am desperately hoping that the Good Slytherins, I eventually hope to
see, are the few greedy Slytherin who see just how BAD Voldemort will
be for business. I foresee ambitious Slytherins who see Voldemort as
the doom of their dreams of wealth and power, and will do everything
they can to prevent such a hopelessly disfunctional and deranged ruler
from taking over. 

A true Slytherin with the appropriate greed and ambition doesn't care
if you are pureblood or pure-muggle as long as your money is good, and
as long as you are willing to spend it with them. Ecomonic power is
the only true power (to a 'good' Slytherin), and that only comes from
a stable economy, and a reliable, stable, and predictable governement.
Stability is the key to prosperity. Far too many dictators forget that.

Just a few thoughts, plus a few more.

Steve/bboyminn