Riddle solved

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 129703

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" <R.Vink2 at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" <tinglinger at y...> 
> wrote:
> > Renee  <briefly delurking, because this is so interesting>:
> > ===========================================================
> > Is it that no one could know what the man was dreaming because he 
> > died without regaining consciousness, and therefore couldn't tell 
> > anyone?
> > And are you saying that no one could know know what exactly
> > happened at Godric's Hollow because James and Lily are dead, 
> > Voldemort ... never told anyone and Harry was too young to grasp 
> > it (though not too young to remember, as the Patronus lessons 
> > show)?  
> > 
> > tinglinger
> > =============
> > Great work, Renee!
> > If no one else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged
> > events that occurred there (in particular Lily's sacrifice which 
> > is so vitally important to the plot), then JKR violated the 
> > Omnipotent Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be 
> > verifiable in order to have validity.) 
> > > SO........... what does all this tell me ?
> 
> <snip>
> > 
> > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents
> > were murdered.
> > 
> > As for who .... 
> > 
> >  
> > tinglinger 
> > 


> Renee:
> Thanks for the invitation... but I hope you don't mind if I disagree 
> with your conclusion, now that you've confirmed this was what you 
> were getting at.  
> 
> As bboyminn points out in message #129691, it is possible to think 
> of a context in which the riddle ceases to be a riddle (though only 
> if you're allowed to introduce extra elements, like the possibility 
> of a ghost telling a story, which is cheating, in a way). 
> 

bboyminn:

I've thought of another god-like all-knowing being who could present
the riddle ... the author. I do understand the nature of your riddle
and it's answer, again, I accept that; the answer is the answer.

But one could say that the author of the riddle is sufficiently
omniscient to know both what happened inside the dream and outside.
The Riddle is being presented as a puzzle to be solved, a series of
clues that lead to a solution, not necessarily as a true account of
real events.

So, in this case, the author could be the ghost or someone in contact
with the ghost, or simply be nothing more than an author of an
interesting puzzle. Again, your puzzle, your answer, I'm not
commenting on that specifically, but making a broader more general point.


> Renee continues:
>
> However, the events at Godric's Hollow are not presented in a way 
> that violates the the narrator perspective. Any details we get are 
> derived from Harry's own memories, surfacing during the Patronus 
> lessons, As Harry is the viewpoint character, there's nothing wrong 
> with this.  
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> So, if you're looking for an argument why there must have been a 
> witness, `how come Voldemort's wand wasn't destroyed after Godric's 
> Hollow?' sounds like a better question to me.  
> 
> 
> Renee

bboyminn:

On that point I agree, the narrative is consistent, but at the same
time the entire series of books is filled with many many mysteries
that are intended to keep us wondering and guessing. The 'mystery'
aspect more than justifies the lack of full disclosure and
explanation. That's part of what makes the books so captivating. 

As far as Godics Hollow, there are many elements to the mystery. How
did people know what happened? How did Dumbledore know Lily sacrificed
herself for Harry? How does anyone know that Lily was indeed killed
before Voldemort attempted to kill Harry? How did Dumbledore know the
Curse on Harry rebounded? It could have been something else. How did
Peter get Voldemort's wand and robes? 

While there are many small clues dropped along the way, I think
Voldemort's wand is probably the key. I vaguely recall someone asking
JKR about it, of course she evaded the question, but in doing so, it
implied that this was not a random error, and further that there is
indeed a significant answer. I think the fact that many years later
Peter had Voldemort's wand, points to him as the most likely person to
have been at Godric's Hollow. I can think of other possiblities, but
right now I'm leaning toward Peter.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn