Debatable ethical issues in OotP and HBP

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 142430

Carol earlier:
> > > Black has made the bed that he's lying in.
 
SiriuslySnapeySusan, also earlier:
> > Wow.  That seems a rather heartless assessment to me.   

Carol responded:
> My apologies if I sounded heartless. (You know I'm not.)

SSSusan:
Indeed, I do.  Which explains my "Wow" opening. ;-)  


Carol:
> I was just trying to state what I perceive to be facts without any 
> attached emotion. 

SSSusan:
Okay.  You're saying you intended this as an emotion-free 
evaluation.  Whereas I took it as a strong judgment, one which seemed 
to me to ignore some important situational & motivational aspects of 
things, as well as some of the humanness of the character.  But 
perhaps that was my problem in how I interpreted what you were doing.


Carol:
> I wasn't considering depression (of course he was depressed
> staying in 12 GP, and not exactly sane after his stay in Azkaban, 
> but if we're looking at motives, his motive in escaping Azkaban was 
> murder and revenge--not exactly commendable, right?). 

SSSusan:
Actually... that's not how I see it at all!  Yes, he was hellbent on 
getting out of Azkaban, he was determined to do whatever was 
necessary to stop Pettigrew.  HOWEVER, what I saw as the motive was 
**protecting Harry.**

Consider that, to that moment, Sirius didn't know anything about 
Pettigrew's still being alive.  Suddenly, when Fudge provides him 
with that newspaper & photograph, he has evidence staring him in the 
face that Pettigrew is alive AND CLOSE TO HARRY.  This changes 
everything!  And he's the only person who would: 1) recognize the 
evidence of PP as Wormtail; and 2) understand that that could mean 
imminent danger for Harry. IOW, he's the only one who can do anything 
about this.

So, to a person wracked by guilt, despondent, stuck in Azkaban for 12 
years, he suddenly sees a place where he's NEEDED, where he can take 
action, where he can help his godson.  At least, that's how I read 
his motivation.  Sure, vengeance might have been a part of it, but 
the way the actions played out, I felt it spoke much more to Sirius' 
desire to protect Harry.


Carol:
> All I'm saying is that after Black chose to go after Wormtail 
> instead of going to DD for help, and everything that happened to 
> him after that, from his imprisonment in Azkaban and other people's 
> perception of him as a murderer to his later entrapment in his own 
> home, is the result of that extremely rash decision, whether he 
> intended to kill Wormtail or merely to confront him. One choice, 
> one serious misjudgment, limited his future choices and in essence, 
> ruined his life. (The same can be said of Snape's decision to join 
> the Death Eaters. In many respects, they're parallel characters or 
> foils--more on that later.)

SSSusan:
Yup.  Sucks, doesn't it?  You're right – those two choices had 
tremendous impact on both men's futures.  Of course, in Sirius' 
situation, I see little option.  As I wrote in 142425:

"Sirius sat at Azkaban for 12 years, during which time DD apparently 
never once visited or contacted Sirius to get his account of the GH 
affair/murder of PP/12 muggles. ...If I'd been Sirius, knowing 
that... I'd be reluctant to go running to him straight off myself."

So, a choice it was to not turn to DD, but definitely a choice which 
was understandable to me.  Snape's choice to join the DEs, in 
contrast, well... we just don't yet know.  One could reasonably 
assume, I think, that it was freely entered into, but we can't be 
certain of the circumstances yet.   


Carol earlier:
> > > The responsibility for that wasted life, like the decision to go
> > > to the MoM, is primarily or entirely his own.

SSSusan earlier:
> > Again, this strikes me as harsh.
 
Carol responded:
> Why harsh? If it wasn't his own choice, whose choice was it? <snip> 
> I'm just asking how his motivation for going to the MoM, whether to 
> help Harry or just to get out of the house and *do* something, 
> changes the fact that if he hadn't gone to the MoM, he wouldn't 
> have died.

SSSusan:
Definitely to go to the MoM was his own choice in the end, though I 
think it's useful to consider what *contributed* to that choice.  I 
guess the statement read to me as "too boiled down" to a judgment:  
Wasted Life/His Own Fault.  

I saw so much *potential* in Sirius (yep, I liked him, so I would).  
I saw a series of unfortunate things happening, some a result of his 
own rashness & choice, some not.  But I also saw the ways in which he 
tried to help, the hope he held out to Harry, his love for Harry.  
And none of that could I boil down to "a wasted life."  His LOSING 
his life felt like a waste to me, yes, but his life itself I would 
not have described as wasted.  (If that distinction makes any sense??)


SSSusan earlier:
> > <snip> My point?  That if we're going to judge one character as 
> > having "made the bed in which he lies," then we ought to judge 
> > others the same way.  And while it's *easier* to judge Sirius 
> > because the picture is clearer and his life is over, hasn't Snape 
> > made the bed in which he lies just as much as – perhaps more 
> > than? – Sirius did? <snip>
 
Carol responded:
> Of course! I never said that he didn't. It's just that, as you said 
> in the portion of your response that I snipped, Snape's motivations 
> are mysterious whereas Black's really aren't. Snape's (bad) 
> decisions to join the DEs and report the Prophecy to Voldemort, as 
> well as his (good) decisions to spy for Dumbledore and remain at 
> Hogwarts, have shaped his circumstances. And now, with the 
> decisions he made in HBP (to teach DADA and face the curse, to take 
> the UV for whatever reason, to kill Dumbledore but save Draco), 
> he's facing the consequences of *all* those cumulative choices. 
> He's lying on the bed of nails that he made for himself, in a 
> position roughly comparable to Sirius Black's after Black's escape 
> from Azkaban but without the consolation of being innocent. 
> Defending either man's choices doesn't undo the fact that he
> made those choices or that choices have consequences.

SSSusan:
Hey, we're seeing things much more closely here than I thought we 
were.  I have no objection to these statements.  

What I was concerned about was what I've seen of some folks 
*excusing* a type of behavior in one character while *damning* the 
same type of behavior in another.  If characters are being looked at 
in similar lights, under similar microscopes, rather than trying to 
build one up or push one down by despising something in one and 
ignoring it in the other, I think it's more useful and fruitful and 
*fair* is all.  

 
> Carol, who never wanted to make SSS angry and apologizes again for 
> any feelings she may have stepped on in posting her opinions about 
> SB

Siriusly Snapey Susan, who never was angry, just curious