Debatable ethical issues in OotP and HBP

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 142433

SSSusan <snip>:
> Yes, he was hellbent on getting out of Azkaban, he was determined to
do whatever was necessary to stop Pettigrew.  HOWEVER, what I saw as
the motive was **protecting Harry.**
> 
> Consider that, to that moment, Sirius didn't know anything about
Pettigrew's still being alive.  Suddenly, when Fudge provides him with
that newspaper & photograph, he has evidence staring him in the face
that Pettigrew is alive AND CLOSE TO HARRY.  This changes everything!
 And he's the only person who would: 1) recognize the evidence of PP
as Wormtail; and 2) understand that that could mean imminent danger
for Harry. IOW, he's the only one who can do anything about this.
<snip>

Carol responds:
I snipped the rest of your post because, as you say, we actually agree
on most of those points. But I see his motives for escaping from
Azkaban rather differently than you (and Nora) do.

Yes, he didn't know anything about Pettigrew still being alive, but
surely he suspected it knowing that PP was a rat Animagus. wouldn't he
have suspected that PP had blown up the street (and killed the
Muggles) as a means of escaping (and framing SB) rather than a
terrorist-style murder-suicide? I can't believe that he actually
thought PP was dead. He would have heard, I think, that only PP's
finger was found. In fact he says himself that PP "blew apart the
street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty
feet of himself--and sped down the sewer with the other rats" (PoA Am.
ed. 363). So it seems clear that he did know that PP was alive and in
hiding. And he would have had numerous reasons for wanting revenge,
most of which he stated in the Shrieking Shack: PP's betrayal of the
Potters, their deaths, his own imprisonment without a trial as a
result of being framed. He states himself that he escaped in order to
perform the murder he'd been arrested for.

As for helping Harry, it's true that he was Harry's godfather, but he
last saw him as a fifteen-month-old baby and he doesn't really know
him. And his statements about wanting to help Harry (quoted by Nora
upthread) are made *to Harry* after he's met him. It's possible to
have more than one motive or reason for any action, and I think that
Black is giving a secondary motive in place of a primary one when he
claims that he's acting for Harry's sake. If he wanted justice rather
than vengeance, he would have wanted Lupin to hand Scabbers over to
Fudge and prove that he was really PP, which in turn would prove his
own innocence. Instead, both he and Lupin opt for "vigilante justice"
(aka murder) and are only prevented from their vengeance on PP by
Harry's interference.

Moreover, Black's actions, which as DD says, are not those of an
innocent man, endanger the students and terrify Ron. Twice he either
breaks into the school or enters it using one of the secret passages
on the Marauder's Map (BTW, I'm a bit confused about how he gets in
because there's no direct entry from the Shrieking Shack). He
furiously slashes the painting of the Fat Lady and then does the same
to Ron's bedcurtains, so that a helpless thirteen-year-old boy is face
to face with a man with a twelve-inch knife. (Imagine Ron's horror if
he had actually murdered Ron's pet rat with that knife.) And he later,
in dog form, seizes Ron by the arm and drags him into the Shrieking
Shack, even though the terrified boy has broken his leg trying to
protect himself. Black's very presence endangers the students by
exposing them to the Dementors. But he seems oblivious to all the
terror and pain he's causing (including the Dementors targeting
Harry). He's bent on vengeance against the "cringing bit of filth" who
valued "his own stinking skin" over the Potters' lives (375).

Yes, he cares about the Potters, and secondarily about their orphaned
son, but his first concern for much of the Shrieking Shack scene is to
avenge their betrayal and murder, not to protect Harry from the danger
of Wormtail's presence. (He knows full well that Wormtail is lazy and
cowardly, more interested in saving his own skin than in returning to
his master.)

"'There'll only be one murder here tonight,' said Black, and his grin
widened" (PoA Am. ed. 340).

"But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat. 'No,' he hissed.
'I've waited too long--'" (340).

"'Peter Pettigrew's *dead*!' said Harry. '*He* killed him twelve years
ago!' He pointed at Black, whose face twitched convulsively.
"'I meant to, he growled, his yellow teeth bared, 'but little Peter
got the better of me. . . not this time, though!'" (349)

"'Sirius, NO!' Lupin yelled, launching himself forwards and dragging
Black away from Ron again, 'WAIT! You can't do it just like that--they
need to understand--we've got to explain--'
"'We can explain afterwards!' snarled black, trying to throw Lupin
off. One hand was still clawing the air as it tried to reach Scabbers,
who was squealing like a piglet. . . ." (349-50).

"'And now you've come to finish him off!' [yelled Harry].
"'Yes, I have,' said Black, with an evil look at Scabbers" (364).

I could go on, but you get the idea. Now granted, JKR is showing Black
in the worst light here, from Harry's POV, but his words and actions
suggest (to me) a fierce and furious desire for vengeance rather than
godfatherly concern for Harry, whose throat he has seized. It's only
after Lupin has explained part of the story (and Snape has interrupted
and been knocked unconscious) that Black starts behaving calmly and
explains about the photo in the Daily Prophet. At that point he states
his motive as concern for Harry.

At any rate, I see Black's primary motive for escaping from Azkaban as
the desire to commit the murder for which he was arrested, and that
desire drives him to behave like a homicidal maniac through much of
PoA, completely unconcerned by the terror he inspires in the Hogwarts
students and particularly Ron. How, exactly, would murdering Pettigrew
 have helped Harry? Would it have restored his lost godfather to him?
No. It would have sent Black to Azkaban, possibly in the company of
his friend Lupin, the co-murderer, and it would most likely have led
to Black being de-souled by the Dementors and Harry being none the
wiser regarding his motives. It's only the presence of Lupin, who
forces him to wait until their story is told, and Harry's insistence
that they turn Pettigrew over to the authorities that saves Black from
this fate. (Pettigrew's escape, while relevant to the main plot, is
irrelevant to the question of Black's motives.)

Carol, who couldn't find page numbers for two of the references but
knows they're there somewhere