The Iron Fist of Will - body/body or body/spirit

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 142475

> bboyminn:
> Well, you believe what you believe; I'm not trying to take that away
> from you. I just see it differently.

Ceridwen:
Oh, I will.  No worries on that!

> bboyminn (with several snips): 
> This would have been the perfect opportunity for Dumbledore
> to destroy Voldemort's body and send him back to his pre-GoF state 
of
> essential vapor. 
> 
> Without his body, Voldemort can't hold a wand and can't perform 
magic.
> Once Harry drove him
> out, where would he go, what would he do? Would his Death Eaters 
still
> follow him if he was powerless? 
> And, if as you say, Voldemort's body kept fighting then why didn't
> Dumbledore keep fighting back? If the fighting body was there and 
was
> a real threat, it's pretty hard for Dumbledore to ignore.
> 
> For one corporeal person to possess another, it makes no sense, if 
the
> possessor leaves his body behind and vulnerable.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying possession by mind/spirit/whatever only is not
> possible; because most likely it is. I'm just saying that's not what
> Voldemort did to Harry in the Ministry of Magic Battle ...or at 
least,
> that's what I'm speculating.
> 
> I can understand that you don't like the natural/unnatural dynamics 
of
> two bodies physically merging, but as unlikely and illogical as it 
may
> seem, that's still how I see that scene. The alternative just leaves
> too many unanswered questions.
> 
> Of course, that's just my own wild unfounded opinion, but none the
> less, there it is.

Ceridwen:
While non-corporeal possession leaves too many unanswered questions 
(such as the problem of what Voldemort did with his body while he was 
in Harry, which is a decent-sized problem), I still have to disagree.

When JKR puts in something that is different than we might expect, 
she gives an explanation.  A cat is a cat, unless it's a Kneazle 
(Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them), or unless it's a 
Transfiguration Mistress (PS/SS).

A dog is a dog when it comes to dinner with Aunt Marge.  But when 
it's a Grim, the concept is explained.  And when it's a wizard, we 
already have the explanation from two books previous, when a cat is 
really a professor.  Further, we learn about unregistered Animagi, 
and that the rat really isn't a rat but a rat-fink.

Harry speaks to snakes (PS/SS).  That's explained one book later 
during the dueling scene and after (CoS).  He is able to make the 
glass on the snake's habitat disappear, which is a manifestation of 
his wizard status, explained in PS/SS.

Dementors appear on the train to Hogwarts (PoA) and are immediately 
expelled and explained by Lupin.  We see another Dementor attack in 
OotP, but it's odd in that it occurrs in Little Whinging.  Dolores 
Umbridge explains at the end of the same book.

We know about brooms, wands and pointy hats being associated with 
witches and wizards, no explanation.  Lupin is a werewolf, but we 
already have that culturally (The Wolfman) so there is little 
explanation, only agreement with what has culturally gone before.  
The idea of Potions is one we readily associate with witches and 
wizards, the fact that wands are optional is explained.  What we 
bring to the story due to cultural influences is not explained, or 
barely explained where her vision contradicts or builds upon existing 
non-HP information:  Greyback's liking of his status, and lurking 
around to optimize his chance at attacking the right victim is one 
example, we're culturally attuned to the tragic werewolf who hates 
his existence, Lyle(?) Talbot, Remus Lupin.  We're also informed of 
the existence of a colony of werewolves when the popular culture has 
Talbot as a loner.

Culturally, we know that possession is by spirit/soul entities.  The 
Exorcist, stories in the Bible, and other things.  I am not aware of 
a physical posession that doesn't involve some parody of a pregnancy 
(Alien).  We've seen three examples I can think of where someone is 
possessed: TR's possession of Ginny in CoS; Voldemort's (and 
subsequently Harry's) possession of Nagini in OotP (don't you feel 
sorry for the snake, having two people piggy-backing in her brain?); 
Harry at the MoM at the end of OotP.  And in none of those cases does 
JKR think to inform us that, cultural expectations aside, the 
possession is physical.

I doubt if she even thought about what LV's body was doing while he 
was possessing Harry.  She naturally had Dumbledore focus on Harry, 
since his judgement where Harry is concerned, is skewed by 
affection.  Which Dumbledore explains later, though he doesn't 
mention the possession scene as one of his failings that I recall.  I 
think she's relying on our cultural perceptions to explain 
possession, since it's her culture as well.  Any plot hole arising 
from it, like the whole What Was LV Doing While He Possessed Harry 
thing, is just that, a plot hole JKR didn't fill up.

That's why I can't buy possession by the body of the possessor.  
There's nothing to back it up in our culture, and there's no 
explanation for something she's invented outside of our cultural 
experiences.

That's just me, though.  She also introduced horcruxes like boulders 
falling on a mountain road.

Ceridwen.