The Iron Fist of Will - body/body or body/spirit

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 142499

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at h...>
wrote:

> Ceridwen:
> Yeah, I was trying for some levity.  I didn't want Steve to 
> think I was 'yelling' at him.  Still, Harry's along for the ride,
> or getting a camera's eye view of what LV's seeing. [Referring 
> to Nagini and the attack on Arthur]
> 

bboyminn:

Nor did I want you to think I was yelling at you. I do understand your
position, and it makes logical sense; I just don't agee and see my own
alternative logic.

As far as the Big Snake, which we can safely assume is Nagini, that
attacked Arthur. This is the only other clear example we have of
possession, and it really is not that clear.

In this case, I agree that Voldemort could have placed his intangible
self into Nagini and sent the snake to the Ministry, while Voldemort's
conscious self rode along, and his physical body remained behind. That
seems prefectly reasonable. I"m leaning more toward, Voldemort fully
and physically being inside the snake, but I really can't say for
sure. So, in this case, nontangible possession is very possible.

> 
> Ceridwen:
> I love the possession theory.  IMO, it fits in all sorts of 
> ways. The discussion now is about fine-tuning it, apparently. 
> So, on the agreement side, we can speculate that it's a power 
> transfered to Harry by LV at GH; it leaves Harry free to use 
> his own will; it covers why Harry didn't die an unnaturally 
> early death like the hosts Vapor!Mort occupies; it can play a
> part in the final battle without orcing Harry to duel LV or 
> to use an Unforgiveable.  Any more? 
> ...edited...
> Ceridwen, who does like the idea of possession as one of the 
> traits LV passed along to Harry at GH, and sees the devil, or
> at least feels  his presence, in the details.
>

bboyminn:

As to the small point of how Harry gained the ability of possession, I
can go either way. I'm not married to the idea that he gained this
skill from Voldemort. It could be Harry own unique skill or it could
have been transferred when the AK Curse failed; either way.

Just so we are all working from the same recall and bank of knowledge,
here is the quote of Harry's possession in the Ministry of Magic.

--- OotP; Am Ed; HB, Pg 815-816 ---
And then Harry's scar butst open. He knew he was dead. It was pain
beyond imagining, pain past endurance--

He was gone from the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature
with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body
ended and the creature's began. They were fused together, bound by
pain, and there was no escape.

And when the creture spoke, it used Harr's mouth, so that in his agony
he felt his jaw move....

"Kill me now, Dumbledore..."

Blinded and dying, every part of hism screaming for release, harry
felt the creature use him again....

"If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy..."

Let the pain sop, thought Harry. Let him kill us..... End it,
Dumbledore.... Death is nothing compared to this....

And I'll see Sirisu again....

And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils
loosened, the pain was gone, Harry was lying facedown on the floor, ...

- - - End Quote - - -

Let me point out certain phrases that seem to re-enforce my personal
position of physical possession. Though, I admit they don't really
/prove/ anything.

"...locked in the coils of a creature..., so tightly bound that Harry
did not know where his body ended and the creature's began. They were
fused together..."

Again, that sounds pretty physical to me; locked together, tightly
bound, can't tell where one begins and the other ends, fused together. 

As you point out, neither of us is trying to shoot down the basic
concept, we just disagree over a minor detail, and I can live with
that, I don't have to convince you. In the end, it could go either
way, and as long as the main objective is accomplished, the minor
details aren't that critical.

Regardless of the minor details, I think it is a sound concept, but
that sort of scares me. While I greatly enjoy our many long
discussions in this group, I worry that, in a sense, we are ruining
the last book for ourselves. What if we are right and we have
everything, regarding this one aspect, figured out? Are we going to be
thrilled that we knew it, or are we going to be disappointed because
the final book held no surprises? Or are we going to spend two years
speculating on grand and glorious possiblilities that the actual book,
with it's limited focus and context, can't possibly live up too.

Regardless, I'm sure I will read and love the last book, and will love
it even if I am disappointed in it. I love HBP, but I don't like it
much, it was a good book, but, really, across the course of the book,
not much really happened. It had its high points but mostly it seemed
like it was merely moving forward in time and covering necessary
ground. That's not all bad, necessary ground is still necessary
ground; sort of like driving through Nebraska to get to Colorado.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn 

PS: Gee... only two or (groan) three more years to go.