WW as Parasite (was:Snape's iPod (was: Staff's Activities...)

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 142563

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:

> Betsy Hp:
> I'm not sure I'd use self-help books as an example of literary 
> culture.  But that's just me. <g>

It's not self-help--it's a literary plea for the rights and humanity 
of werewolves.  That, and pseudo-Moliere...

> Betsy Hp:
> I think you missed my point here. Rock music formed from a very 
> specific cultural evolution.  There is nothing within the WW's 
> history to think that they would have formed that type of music 
> completely (or even partially) on their own.  So the Weird Sisters 
> *must* have formed because of Muggle music wizards heard and shared 
> with each other.  They could not exist otherwise.

That's not true.  Popular musics with surprising similiarities have 
evolved in cultures with relatively little or no contact with each 
other--or things have been adapted from a genuinely minimal contact.  
You do a little comparative musicology (you do a lot...), you go "Wow-
-that's really alike in so many ways, but those cultures had no 
contact with each other."  [Or it was 1500 years ago, that sort of 
thing...]  As well, it doesn't necessarily require such a direct spur 
of Muggle music to provide the influence.  For instance, did you know 
that the 'jazz' so influential on European composers of the 1920's 
and such was not actually ever heard by them?  It was spread via 
scanty notation, which as anyone will tell you, is not a way you're 
ever going to actually learn jazz.

Given the split happening when the most foundational principles of 
the Western musical tradition are pretty solidly set, if not all the 
generic and instrumental manifestations, it's not like the wizards 
would be having to evolve musical culture from scratch.

> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, I bet you would.  Seriously, would you limit your musical 
> experience to just one group?  Why should music lovers in the WW be 
> forced to live under such privation?  How many different orchestras 
> and conducters do we have here in the Muggle world playing their 
> own interpertations of great music?  Why should folks in the WW 
> limit themselves to the one (if they're lucky) their culture could 
> support?

But that's within the orbit of a single culture, the conductors 
example.  (It's also only possible with the advents of certain kinds 
of recording cultures.)  As soon as you bring up conductors you're 
also invoking music with a completely different ontological status 
and means of dissemination from the popular musics which we've been 
focused on, so the rules of the game are completely and utterly 
different.

One other thing that comes to mind is that *no* Muggle group is going 
to be active participants in the methods of dissemination that the WW 
takes part in.  They're complete cultural outsiders--they don't even 
know that it exists--what kind of publicity can they get?  Nothing 
like the adorable banners on JKR's website (the wizarding 
advertisements) for them, and probably not on the Wizarding Wireless, 
either.  Word-of-mouth is inevitably a much smaller phenomenon.

> Betsy Hp:
> So I've never heard the phrase "wainscot fantasy" and have no idea 
> what you mean there.  But I do cry foul to the old "JKR didn't 
> think it through" cop out.  Come on now.  This is either a viable 
> world she created or it's not.

Law of the excluded middle.  There are ways that it's viable, and 
ways that it makes no sense.

> I think there are ways to see it as viable, and this is my 
> version.  You may disagree, but don't just take your ball and go 
> home.  How can I possibly take your music arguments seriously if 
> you turn around and say this is a mock-up world anyway and should 
> only be taken as such? <g>

Because on a simple factual level, and even dealing with details, 
there are things that make sense and things which 
just...well...don't.  Wainscot fantasy is a sub-genre dealing with 
hidden worlds inside of other worlds, and the relationships between 
the two are frequently far more fantastic than worked-out in 
excruciating detail.  So I'd say that there are definite limits to 
what one can do, and it's just built into the nature of the genre.

I'm offering hypothetics about music cultures because that's what I 
know a great deal about, and because it's a much more limited topic 
than economics, which controls everything.  It also has a potential 
(which I see decreasing the more I think about it) of being argued 
out a little more coherently and with thematic resonance.

On the other hand, has anyone ever made unassailable sense of the 
number of students at Hogwarts, the ratios of populations in 
Wizarding Britain, and the overall population?  Is that a no I hear?  
I think it's because it just can't be worked out to satisfy all 
parameters, and it doesn't even get close.

> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, but Harry recognizes the type of singing Warbeck does.  It's a 
> type from the Muggle world.  That's my entire point.  For the WW 
> music to so match the Muggle world means that either the Muggle 
> world got it from them, or they got it from the Muggles.  Since the 
> WW culture puts so little importance in music they must have 
> piggybacked the Muggle musical culture.

The style of singing in European culture hasn't varied that much in 
1000+ years, I can tell you. :)  He'd probably have noticed if she 
were singing like a khyaliya, yes.  So that falls into the common 
cultural property bag, as does diatony.  Wizards do seem to care less 
for consonance/dissonance regulation, however...

> If it were otherwise their music would have developed completely 
> apart from the Muggle world and Harry would not see a similarity.  
> Just as the first Europeans to hear a Chinese opera would not see a 
> similarity with their own operas.

I don't think I've ever said that there haven't been borrowings.  
What I'm arguing, again, is the point that people in the WW seem 
rather unlikely to go forth and make central the consumption of 
specific Muggle musical products.  Have we ever heard of anyone 
reading a recognizable piece of Muggle literature?  Not outside of a 
thousand bleach-to-brain fanfics.

> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, because inventing your own spells and improving on various 
> potions is such a sign of a lack of patience. (Sorry. Couldn't help 
> myself. <g>)

Invention patience...ah, not the same animal as listening to music 
(especially the music you all wanted to ascribe to him) as anything 
more than aural wallpaper. :)

-Nora doesn't see Snape being interested in drawing a 5-line...