Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 142634


> a_svirn:
> What custom did Dumbledore follow? He came uninvited and took the 
> position of his host; I'd like you to direct me to any book or site 
> where such behaviour would be described as customary or as an 
> example of good manners. Of course, it may be that wizards customary 
> deal with muggles in that fashion. After all we saw Scrimgeour doing 
> just that in the Prime Minister's office. 
> 
><snip>
> You know, when I'm at home *I* am the one who does the offerings, be 
> it a place to seat, a refreshment, or a conversational gambit. To 
> seat before it's suggested by your host IS rude. To offer a drink to 
> your host IS rude. To demand any such thing even in the "shell we 
> assume" form IS rude. Because ALL THIS IS A PREROGATIVE OF YOUR 
> HOST. And if I don't want to see a visitor, to entertain them and to 
> let them in *my* house I am within my rights to simply refuse to do 
> any such thing. It is not polite to trespass on my property (in fact 
> it's a criminal offence), impose on my privacy and practically give 
> orders in my own place all the while preaching manners. 
> 

Valky now:
:) 

Dumbledores behaviour that night would not strictly be bullying under
the rules of etiquette in civil custom of 'proper' people like the
Durselys. It's called, rather, pressing one's advantage, something
that Dumbledore, as an official acquaintance of the Dursleys, could
always do, and yet, has refrained brilliantly from doing in more than
a decade of knowing them. 

The fact is the Dursleys bully like they do, because the customs allow
them to 'press advantage' and remain civilised people under their
social rules. It is not Dumbledore who is at fault, but the rules
themselves. They allow for it, and the Durselys were cornered within
their own standard of good behaviour.

A few points:

Dumbledore was not trespassing, he sent a forwarding announcement of
his intent to come. This is why Vernon could not say "You are
trespassing, get off my land." because according to *his* own
standards and customs Dumbledore was there on a good faith
misunderstanding. 

Dumbledore had maintained the acquaintance between himself in the
Dursleys in proper fashion through regular correspondence. By the
rules of the custom Dumbledore's eventual visit is expected *of
Dumbledore*. It would be more rude *not* to turn up someday for a
visit. Dumbledore has done the right thing by visiting, and Vernon
knows it. 

In the case of a misunderstanding, Vernon could say, with a reasonable
excuse for refusing a known civil acquaintances, who have mistakenly
expected your hospitality, the customary ten minutes of your time as a
courtesy, that he couldn't accept Dumbledore into his home. There are
few reasonable excuses for not giving a long known acquaintance ten
minutes when he is weary from his travel to your home to do *you* the
courtesy of a customary visit. Again Vernon knows darn well that he
should give Dumbledore a ten minute courtesy, he is not a stranger and
he has so far *done nothing uncivilised* according to Vernon's
standards. Vernon is trapped by his own social standard. 

It is customary for a guest to bring a gift, and a bottle of nice
drink is the most acceptable an proper gift in the book. 

I'd like to direct you to some online text on the customs but
unfortunately there are none available, you may have to find a book on
the subject.


 
> 
> > Valky:
> > Now this I absolutely agree with,<snip> Any other thoughts?
> 
> a_svirn:
> My thought is that Harry has learned to recognise bullying when he 
> sees it.
>


Valky:
Well I agree, *you* could rightly call Dumbledore's intrusion
bullying. If you hold yourself to this standard and would say outright
to Dumbledore "On your bike, mate" regardless of what he had done so
far that was within custom, then that is your choice of course, and
Dumbeldore would most likely approach you differently. In Vernon's
culture 'proper' people don't do that. 

My point is that JKR could well be demonstrating here that Vernon
undoes himself by the standard he holds to and uses for bullying
others. In which case - two things - 1. I agree with SSSusan and
Sherry, It serves the Dursleys right! and 2. It's darn funny and
reminds me of Keeping up Appearances an hilarious British comedy of
the same.

Valky