Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore?

[lealess]

No: HPFGUIDX 142647

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" <Aisbelmon at h...> wrote:
>
> 
> > a_svirn:
> > What custom did Dumbledore follow? He came uninvited and took the 
> > position of his host; I'd like you to direct me to any book or
> > site where such behaviour would be described as customary or as an 
> > example of good manners. Of course, it may be that wizards 
> > customary deal with muggles in that fashion. After all we saw 
> > Scrimgeour doing just that in the Prime Minister's office. 
> > 
> ><snip>
> > You know, when I'm at home *I* am the one who does the offerings, 
> > be it a place to seat, a refreshment, or a conversational gambit. 
> > To seat before it's suggested by your host IS rude. To offer a 
> > drink to your host IS rude. To demand any such thing even in the 
> > "shell we assume" form IS rude. Because ALL THIS IS A PREROGATIVE  
> > OF YOUR HOST. And if I don't want to see a visitor, to entertain 
> > them and to let them in *my* house I am within my rights to simply 
> > refuse to do any such thing. It is not polite to trespass on my 
> > (in fact it's a criminal offence), impose on my privacy and  
> > property practically giveorders in my own place all the while 
> > preaching  manners.
> 
> Valky now:
> :) 
> 
> Dumbledores behaviour that night would not strictly be bullying 
> under the rules of etiquette in civil custom of 'proper' people like 
> the Durselys. It's called, rather, pressing one's advantage, 
> something that Dumbledore, as an official acquaintance of the 
> Dursleys, could always do, and yet, has refrained brilliantly from 
> doing in more than a decade of knowing them.

lealess:  It seems a fine distinction between "pressing an advantage"
and bullying when the one doing the pressing is arguably a superior
creature, at least in power.  What choice does the inferior have,
except to submit?

> The fact is the Dursleys bully like they do, because the customs 
> allow them to 'press advantage' and remain civilised people under 
> their social rules. It is not Dumbledore who is at fault, but the 
> rules themselves. They allow for it, and the Durselys were cornered 
> within their own standard of good behaviour.

lealess: Yes, the Dursleys are bullies.  However, the Dursleys were
cornered by someone they feared, not by their own standards, which
they applied hypocritically, anyway.  I would not call them civilized.

> A few points:
> 
> Dumbledore was not trespassing, he sent a forwarding announcement of
> his intent to come. This is why Vernon could not say "You are
> trespassing, get off my land." because according to *his* own
> standards and customs Dumbledore was there on a good faith
> misunderstanding. 

lealess: Dumbledore realizes that Harry did not tell the Dursleys that
he was coming that evening.  Then he steps over the threshhold without
being invited in.  You are saying that him sending a note to Harry
beforehand makes that OK?  So supposedly any correspondent could
invite him- or herself over, if the person sent a note beforehand, and
the Dursleys would have to accept it according to a code they probably
don't hold to anyway?
 
> Dumbledore had maintained the acquaintance between himself in the
> Dursleys in proper fashion through regular correspondence. By the
> rules of the custom Dumbledore's eventual visit is expected *of
> Dumbledore*. It would be more rude *not* to turn up someday for a
> visit. Dumbledore has done the right thing by visiting, and Vernon
> knows it. 

lealess: The only example of correspondence with Dumbledore we have is
a Howler.  If someone sends me what I see as a threatening letter,
and then decides to drop by, I might not think that person was doing
the proper thing.  I might want them to stay away.

I am snipping the rest of your post, because I am not convinced the
Dursleys hold to the code of manners you describe.  Vernon seems like
a "king of the castle" type, except when its work-related, and then
he's a toady.

I agree that the Dursleys are bullies.  Did Dumbledore change that
during his visit?  No.  All he did was frighten them and get his petty
digs in.  Did he change years of abuse?  Did he even explain how they
abused Dudley?  No.  All he did was give a vicarious thrill to readers
eager for the Dursleys to be punished.

The Dursleys, or at least Petunia, were frightened of involvement with
wizards, for good reason (Lily and James), and Petunia's fear made the
family violently reactive to any hint of magic.  I'm not excusing the
Dursleys at all.  But they are understandable.  Look at the numbers of
people who turn their backs on neighbors in distress because they
don't want to be exposed to risk.  For that matter, look at the
parents who sell their children into slavery today.  It isn't
uncommon, unfortunately.  So, the Dursleys are selfish hypocrites. 
But they are not the worst thing that could have happened to Harry in
the Muggle world.

Let's examine Dumbledore's behavior.  He realizes Harry didn't tell
the Dursleys he'd be around, yet steps into the house as if it was all
fixed.  He interrupts Vernon with mild scolding right away.  He
abruptly slings the family onto a sofa.  He chides them for not
offering him drinks, as if they invited him there in the first place.
 He offers them a magical drink, which Harry imbibes, but... Harry is
a wizard and they are wary of magic (and have you ever had mead --
yuck).  He forces glasses of this liquor on them, without even asking
if they want it.  Then he calls his little, hyperactive friend over
(Kreacher), without a by your leave.  Finally, he tells them the
protection they have had for fifteen years will end in a year, oh, but
would they shelter the one exposing them to danger for another year,
anyway?  Way to go, Dumbledore; you really made a stride forward for
wizard-Muggle understanding.

If you are saying that Dumbledore wasn't rude, or arrogant, or just
plain creepy, I don't buy it.  If you are saying he was out for some
sort of weird but pointless revenge, that seems more likely.

If the Dumbledore of HBP was the same one we've known all along, then
he was a surprise to me.  If there was something wrong with him, some
dark magic working within him, some pressing deadline he was facing,
some means by which he was exhausting himself, then his behavior would
make a lot more sense.

He had his little joke with the glasses, and some readers got the joy
of seeing the Dursleys bullied, i.e., terrified by one of superior
power to satisfy the psychological needs of the superior one.  But if
Dumbledore was in my house, I would have considered him rude, told him
I really wasn't expecting him, and asked him to leave.  This
Dumbledore would come in anyway and lectured or laughed at me, after
throwing me on a sofa and forcing a drink on me.  He was not a polite
man.

As for Harry's nervousness, I think that was a combination of his
realization that Dumbledore enjoyed toying with the Dursleys, combined
with his usual eagerness to leave that house.

lealess