Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 142698


> Betsy Hp:
> To my mind, the fact that Vernon didn't force (or try, anyway) 
> Dumbledore to leave, that Dudley didn't try to flee the room, that 
> once thrown onto the couch (and they were rather violently knocked 
> onto the couch) they didn't try and stand up, suggests that they 
> were quite terrified.  Terrified into submission, as it were.  To a 
> point.
> 
> The fact that they *still* had the wherewithal to refuse to drink 
> the mead suggests that there is a rather fixed spine within them (or 
> maybe a certain level of opstinance).  They will only go so far, but 
> after that, they stop.  If Dumbleodore had overtly threatened any of 
> the Dursleys, I think they'd have once again refused to drink the 
> mead.  Harry would be out, and they'd flee.

Valky:
There's obviously no changing your mind on that Betsy. ;D But as you
know I really do not agree that Dumbledore controlled them using
terror. I posted earlier that we are shown Dumbledore's methods of
getting things done several times through the series. In his knowledge
of Slughorn, he establishes that Slughorn will respond to a plea from
Harry, in his knowledge of Cornelius Fudge and the Wizard court he
establishes that they will respond to a certain line of questioning
and it will get the job done. The list goes on, and in every case
Dumbledore anticipates the response and knowingly pushes the button.
If he suddenly changes his whole approach with the Dursleys and
decides to barge in frigtening the pants off them till they submit,
it's news to me. Clearly he decided to do that in philosophers stone
hence why he sent Hagrid to deliver the note, but I am not disputing
that he intended to scare/bully the Dursleys in PS/SS, I am disputing
that he did so in HBP. The fact that Dumbledore went himself to the
Durselys and did follow custom, which I am sure a_svirn can transcript
from the book he mentions, in announcing his arrival properly,
assuming his visit was recieved when no apologies were sent, arriving
with the sharpest possible punctuality, making proper introductions
and small talk - these are all evidence to he approach Dumbledore took
to the Dursleys. You're welcome to disagree, that's your prerogative,
I have given the strongest argument I can to the point that Dumbledore
did not come with a threat to overwhelm them into submission.



> 
> > >>Valky:
> > <snip>
> > We simply do know he [Dumbledore] was not malicious for a start,   
> > his intentions were entirely above board. I honestly think the     
> > Dursleys knew that as well as we do.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Do we?  I thought Dumbledore was being rather deliberately rude with 
> the Dursleys in this scene.  (I'm still confused about what book of 
> etiquette says the polite thing to do if someone refuses a drink is 
> to knock them repeatedly over the head.) 


Valky:
LOL! Of course I won't answer that in the format you suggest, Betsy. <g>

The polite thing to do is politely refuse the drink! Did the Dursleys
look up and say "no thankyou"? Come on what is this Dumbledore beat
up! LOL 

The Dursleys looked down and tried to ignore the drink being offered
Uncle Vernon tried to beat it away and eventually he just screeched
rudely at Dumbledore. 
I see the head banging thing as a kind of silent butler standing
beside them insisting "Your drink Madam.." over and over and getting
NO REPLY! Honestly! Is it Dumbledores fault they couldn't treat him
with any decency and refuse the drink like any polite person would?


> Betsy:
> Dumbledore, actually acts very much like a mob boss in this scene, I 
> think.  He takes special notice of the most vulnerable of the 
> Dursleys (Dudley) he pulls a weapon when Vernon starts to assert 
> himself and forces the Dursleys into a submissive position, and then 
> he treats them to continual physical humiliation.  That he does so 
> with a quiet voice and a sweet smile would only increase the fear 
> for the Dursleys, IMO.  (A "strictly business" sort of thing.)

Valky:
Betsy <beg> I am starting to wonder if you aren't too far into
flipping things over- Draco is really nice and sweet; Dumbledore is
like a mob boss. ROFL. I am sorry I can't give this a dignified
answer, Betsy. As much as I have always fully respected your posts, I
am just laughing too hard right now.


> Betsy:
> Again, in some ways the Dursleys have been asking for it for a long 
> while now.  But, as per usual with JKR, she takes it about two steps 
> too far for me.  And what should have been enjoyable farce becomes 
> slightly uncomfortable for me to watch.  What's difficult for me to 
> decide is if JKR *means* for me to be uncomfortable or if she really 
> does subscribe to the "beat them 'til they bleed" school of 
> thought.  It's the same problem I have with the twins, the treatment 
> of Draco, etc.
>

Valky:
Okay, I am breathing steadily now. I just like to say that in all
honesty I think the beat them till they bleed thing that you're seeing
is pretty subjective. The Dursleys weren't that scared really, maybe
you need to read the passage again with fresh eyes, notice that Vernon
has enough pluck to get greedy eyed at Harry's inheritance from Sirius
and gloat over Sirius' death and that all indications are that
whenever the Dursleys are silent it was by their own choice to say
nothing in moments when they are not terrified but simply trying to
ignore Dumbledore (except for once when Dumbledore silenced them to
say his piece on Harry) otherwise they spoke when they wanted to and
never abashedly. At the end of the visit the descriptions of the
Dursleys are:

Dudley - Frowning
Vernon - Looked like something had stuck in his throat
Petunia - Oddly flushed

I don't see the vaguest *hint* of terrified so where are you getting
it from?

Valky