Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore?

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 142752

> >>Valky:
> There's obviously no changing your mind on that Betsy. ;D
 
Betsy Hp:
Oh, someone could change my mind.  (It *has* happened before. 
<shock, horror>)  Taking the route that Dumbledore was acting with 
true politeness is not likely to get the job done, however. <g>

> >>Valky:
> <snip>
> The fact that Dumbledore went himself to the Durselys and did      
> follow custom, which I am sure a_svirn can transcript from the    
> book he mentions, in announcing his arrival properly, assuming his 
> visit was recieved when no apologies were sent, arriving with the 
> sharpest possible punctuality, making proper introductions and     
> small talk - these are all evidence to he approach Dumbledore took 
> to the Dursleys. You're welcome to disagree, that's your          
> prerogative, I have given the strongest argument I can to the     
> point that Dumbledore did not come with a threat to overwhelm them 
> into submission.

Betsy Hp:
I'm not saying Dumbledore arrived with a plan to threaten the 
Dursleys into submission.  I'm merely saying that he was not polite 
within that scene.  Let's take it step by step, and let's throw in a 
comparison of Dumbledore's behavior here and Arthur Weasley's in 
GoF. [Page references for both GoF and HBP are for the scholastic 
hardback editions.]

1) Dumbledore  does *not* properly announce his arrival.  He 
communicates with a minor in the Dursley household, not with Vernon 
or Petunia [HBP 43].  And as such, his arrival surprises the 
household [HBP 45].

Molly Weasley, on the other hand, asks both Petunia and Vernon for 
permission to come collect Harry and waits to receive an answer [GoF 
30].

2) Punctuality is observed by Dumbledore [HBP 44], though he does 
arrive at a non-traditional visiting hour [HBP 45] without being 
sure of his welcome.

Arthur Weasley is, unfortunately, rather late [GoF 42].  And he 
arrives in a rather unique (for Muggles) way.  But he does apologize 
and makes it clear that he will fix what is damaged [GoF 44-45].

3)Proper introductions are not observed by Dumbledore.  He should 
not have arrived at the Dursleys home without first communicating 
with them. (I agree with Harry that exploding letters really don't 
count.)  The very fact that he has to explain who he is and what 
he's doing at eleven o'clock at night in the Dursley foyer [HBP 46-
47] suggests that Dumbledore did not observe the usual social 
niceties.

Molly Weasley, on the other hand, covered it all in her letter.  The 
Dursleys knew who Arthur Weasley was and why he was there.  (They 
were still frightened per JKR, "panic-stricken" "terrified", but at 
least they had *some* idea of what was going on [GoF 42])

4) Dumbledore's small-talk is practically non-existent.  He 
identifies the members of the Dursley household.  He chastises 
Vernon a couple of times, and then, after physically assulting the 
Dursleys, he talks pretty much exclusively with Harry [HBP 45-48].

Arthur Weasley *does* make small-talk.  He tries to connect with the 
Dursleys over his interest in Muggle things [GoF 46]. He 
speaks "kindly" to Dudley [GoF 47].  And all the while he is keeping 
things moving briskly so as to not overstay his welcome [GoF 45 & 
47]. 

Point by point, Arthur Weasley has Dumbledore beat.  But here's the 
crux, IMO.  I don't think Dumbledore *wanted* to be polite.  He 
wasn't there on a social visit, he was there on a mission.  So he 
*would* show up unannounced to the unpleasant Muggles, he *would* 
bully the Dursleys into doing as he wished, and he *would* make them 
sit down and shut up and let he and Harry get on with it.

Dumbledore wasn't polite, but I don't think he'd say he was trying 
to be.  You laughed at my mob boss reference, but I think the 
comparison is valid.  Not that Dumbledore *is* a mob boss, but he is 
using the veneer of politeness in a threatening or intimidating 
manner.

Arthur Weasley, on the other hand, *was* trying to be polite.  And 
other than being half an hour late (bad form, but not atypical for 
parents trying to wrangle their various kids together in my 
experience) I think he did a bang up job.

And here's the thing.  I enjoyed Dumbledore's rudeness for the most 
part.  His wit was amusing, and I enjoyed seeing Vernon get cut down 
to size and Petunia embarrassed.  It was the head banging that 
bothered me.  I thought it a bit beneath Dumbledore, frankly.  It's 
a bully's way of intimidation, and Dumbledore didn't need to resort 
to it, I think.  It was the step too far, for me. (I do like to 
think that Dumbledore was overcome with anger and behaved badly.  He 
loves Harry, in his way, plus there is that guilt a_svirn mentioned 
up-thread.) 

I did like his speech at the end, in that the Dursleys *did* treat 
Harry badly and it was nice to see them called on it.  However, 
Arthur Weasley's indignation when the Dursleys didn't say goodbye to 
Harry [GoF 48] was more powerful for me.  Probably because Arthur 
didn't lower himself to the Dursleys' level.  

> >>Valky:
> <snip>
> The Dursleys weren't that scared really, maybe you need to read   
> the passage again with fresh eyes...
> <snip of examples>

Betsy Hp:
Okay, well we have Dudley "gaping in astonishment and fear" 
and "scrambl[ing]" out of Dumbledore's way [47].  We don't see any 
reaction to them being manhandled, but the Dursleys do give each 
other "quick, scared looks" and deciding not to drink the mead 
[48].  Again, there's a large gap of ignoring the Dursleys (though 
Vernon does express a certain amount of greed over Harry's 
inheritance).  When we return to them, they are "cowering" [51].  

Kreacher's appearance causes Petunia to give a "hair-raising shriek" 
[51] which suggests at least a great deal of startlement on her part.

Again, the Dursleys are ignored for a while, Harry gets his things 
and is "disappointed" to return to the living room where a "thicker 
than cold custard" atmosphere is brewing [54].  I think it's worth 
noting that Petunia hasn't spoken since Dumbledore's arrival [54].  
She's intimidated at the least, and that does suggest fear to me.  
Especially since the Dursleys "drew very slightly together" [55] 
when Dumbledore addressed them again.

So, looking at the scene with fresh eyes I will say they don't seem 
truly terrified, especially by the end.  But I will maintain that 
they were scared.  Frankly, I think Vernon's lack of an imagination 
keeps him from being completely terrified.  He's too dull-witted to 
realize just how much danger Dumbledore could be to them, IMO.  (And 
note I said *could*, not that Dumbledore really *would* have 
unleashed on them.  Throwing them into a couch, knocking them over 
the head and chastising them was enough for the man, I think.) 

Betsy Hp (polishing off her LOON badge <g>)