Polite Dumbledore/ Harry's feelings about Dursleys/Moral cruelty and Snape

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 142703

> a_svirn:
> Would you mind explaining the difference between Dumbledore's 
> niceties when he "presses his advantage" with the Dursleys and 
> Voldemort's niceties when he demands Harry to observe the 
etiquette 
> of the wizarding duel. The similarities are striking; do you think 
> it was also a diplomatic gesture on Voldemort's part? 

Alla:

Oh, IMO,  the similarities are not THAT striking. While both 
Dumbledore and Voldemort have upper hand so to speak, I have  not 
noticed Dumbledore trying to kill Dursleys.



> a_svirn:
> Harry wants to leave both before and during this little 
performance. 
> When he packed his trunk and came down only to find the cowering 
> Dursleys and the serene Dumbledore he wanted to leave even more 
than 
> before. You may think this episode is a good joke, but Harry never 
> once sniggered or smirked. He was acutely uncomfortable throughout 
> the proceedings. Looks like he's not a big fun of poetic justice. 

Alla:

I think your interpretation and mine are equally valid because 
nowhere in that scene we hear Harry saying that he is uncomfortable 
watching what Dumbledore does to Dursleys. I mean, you could be 
right of course that Harry wants to leave because he is 
uncomfortable, but I think that I can also be right - that Harry 
wants to leave simply because he always wants to leave  the Dursleys.

Moreover, if you ARE right and Harry is not a big fan of poetic 
justice, it does not really matter to me ( I mean not that your 
views do not matter, but Harry's views on the subject for the 
purpose of this argument do not matter to me :-)) 

I know I AM a big fan of poetic justice and from some episodes in 
the books I interpret that JKR also is the one. I could be wrong of 
course.

If Harry is the better " person" than I am, well, that is 
fantastic. :-) I would like his character even more for that reason.

After all, at the moment I doubt that I would be able to feel pity 
for someone who ( G-d forbid) would kill my parents, no matter how 
awful his childhood had been and Harry was able to do that.

I remember reading the argument that Harry's pity for Tom was very 
brief and cheesy or something like that and thinking that it is a 
wonder that Harry was able to feel pity for Tom AT ALL. So, I guess 
I will not be surprised if we learn that Harry WAS feeling some pity 
towards Dursleys, but right now I don't believe that chapter 3 
explicitly states so. Just me of course.




> a_svirn:
> 
> Well, no, I didn't mean that. Although while we on the subject I 
> must say that it's not polite in the least to share 
> your "overwhelming happiness" with the family who just suffered a 
> bereavement. Especially if you are happy about something that 
caused 
> the said bereavement in the first place.

Alla:

LOL! True, but who knows maybe for some reason they figured out that 
Dursleys were not exactly in mourning and that is why they felt it 
is OK to share the joy. 


a_svirn: 
> But you can refresh your recollection by rereading the "Keeper of 
> the Keys" chapter of the Philosopher Stone for instance. Here we 
> have a wizard being boorishly rude on Harry's behalf. Not to 
mention 
> violent on Dumbledore's.
>
Alla:

Oh, thanks. You see I have not even thought of Hagrid, because to me 
it was another early example of poetic justice in making. After all, 
we already saw how badly Harry was treated and  Hagrid comes on the 
scene after that. If for example we saw this scene  before we 
witnessed how Harry was treated, I may have felt differently or not.

> Christina:
<snip>
I know a lot of people consider Snape's primary character flaw his 
tendency to prey on those weaker than himself (although I believe he 
learned that from James and Sirius, but that's another thread),

Alla:

LOL! I think you underestimating the things James and Sirius learned 
from Snape. We know for a fact that at least one curse they 
definitely learned from Snape and not vice versa, but that is indeed 
another thread. :-)


Christina:
<snip>
and I've definitely spoken to people who have said that it is this 
behavior that prevents them from thinking that Snape can ever come 
to any good.  I'd really like to hear from people in this camp 
regarding the Dumbledore/Dursley scene.

Alla:

Well, not sure about being completely in that camp, since even 
though I always wanted Snape punish for what he does to Harry and 
Neville, pre HBP I was thinking that he would do some good as loyal 
soldier of the Light side, but I am in that camp enough - so my 
answer is again - poetic justice.

  
Christina:

> My point is, the fact that the Dursleys are Muggles and don't
> understand magic is constantly exploited by wizards.  This is what
> bothers me most about the Dumbledore/Dursley meeting.  As much as 
we
> cry foul when Position-of-Authority!Snape picks on Child!Harry, 
people
> seem shockingly approving when Dumbledore does the exact same 
thing to
> the Dursleys.  

Alla:

The biggest difference to me is that before anything done to 
Dursleys, they already mistreated Harry and that is why I am not 
getting upset about it. Snape picks on Harry, but Harry did not do 
anything to Snape. Dursleys hurt Harry plenty, IMO. JKR is not 
writing the book where justice system will deal with Dursleys, so 
she punishes them with black humor and yeah, sometimes wizards 
having an upper hand, IMO.


Nora:
> If JKR is telling a story of the Ordinary Vices as well as of 
grand-scale metaphysical Evil, then we should pay as much attention 
to the consistent patterns of ill behavior characters evince.  
Things add up.  Voldemort probably couldn't have done what he did 
without the implicit cooperation of the attitudes of much of 
wizarding society. Smaller evils than larger ones, but so important 
in how people relate to each other.

Alla:

Yeah, Ordinary Vices. I am rereading that book again. I think it 
nailes SO many issues related to Potterverse. I did tell you how 
grateful I am that you recommended this book to me, I think. :-)

" What is moral cruelty? It is not just a matter of hurting 
someone's feelings. It is deliberate and persistent humiliation, so 
that the victim can eventually trust neither himself no anybody else"

That is SO nailes what Snape does, IMO and I am talking about pre- 
HBP Snape, mind you, because even if Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, I 
hope we agree that there is at least a possibility that he may be 
not and if he is not then we are not talking about everyday evil or 
maybe about everyday evil transformed into huge evil, I don't know.


Again,

just my opinion

Alla