Love: the Opposite horcrux - Perspective - Then and Now

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 143181

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, zehms at a... wrote:
>
> Steve/bboyminn:
> To say 'love will conquer Voldemort' is all good and well, but 
> how?What are the practical aspect of it. Think of it from Harry
> perspective ...
> <SNIP>
> Yes, to the reader, in the end, Love can conquer all, but to a 
> 17 year old wizard facing insurmountable tasks, you damn well 
> better hone yourskills and gather your resources. ...
> 
> 
> szehms replies:
> 
> I think our disagreement is a matter of semantics.
> 
> I wrote a very long logical argument making the case that Love 
> will save Harry IN THE END.
> 
> Your points are related more to Harry's initial journey and 
> quest: destroying the horcruxes.
> 

bboyminn:

In a sense, that is exactly the point I was making. I agree that IN
THE END Love will conquer all. But Harry is not at the end, and he is
a blind fool if he puts all his eggs in that one very abstract basket
at this stage of the game. 

> szehms:
>
> First of all, I think you underestimate Harry's talents. Harry 
> is more  gifted than he even realizes, ... Harry underestimates
> his powers, ... Harr in book 7, a Harry with more confidence in
>  his abilities.
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think we are so much arguing semantics as perspective. From
the perspective of the outsider(reader or viewer), I agree with what
you said, or at least the basic concept. But shift your perspective to
inside the story, shift your perspective into the heads of any of the
good characters. Are you really going to stake your life and the fate
of the wizard world on the seemingly hollow platitude of "Harry, you
can love'? I don't think so.

I agree Harry has tremendous talent, but talent is nothing unless it
is refined into SKILL. You could be the world's most talented chess
player, but that talent is wasted and useless if you've never played a
game of chess. Talent is in the abstract, and doesn't function well
unless it is refined into the concrete realm of Applied Skill.

I agree Harry has talent, but no one has ever taught him how to apply
that talent effectively. Consider the level of knowledge of the other
somewhat younger wizards in the story. Harry skill is not even
remotely at the level of a relatively young Remus Lupin. Harry's skill
REALLY REALLY is not even remotely close to that of Snape. Even the
twins, in there own special areas, are far more skilled than Harry.
Note; I am speaking of 'skill' here, not talent.
 
>From an internal (internal to the story) perspective there is no
practical way to apply or train for 'love conquers all'. It's too
abstract. It is a nice concept that will prove out in the end, but it
is a worthless concept for getting you to the end ALIVE and able.
Though I admit it has the potential for fortify Harry and give him
courage, and those are nice attributes, but they have limited
practical application.

So, I agree that Love will conguer all in the end. But to use that as
the sole foundation for taking yourself to the end in Harry situation
is suicide. You simply can't tackle a task like Harry's with no
refined skill, knowledge, or training. 

> szehms:
> I also think that Harry is a more gifted legilimens than he 
> knows. ... Harry is taking the O.W.L for the History of Magic,
> ... (he thinks to himself if only he could use Legilimency to 
> read Pavarti's mind for the answers,...)
> 
> This gift of Legilimency will help him on his quest.
> 

bboyminn:

To some extent I agree with your conclusion, but not with your
example. I don't think any Legilimency was going on during the History
of Magic exam. However, we have seen that Harry has a strong intuitive
sense. For example, he usually knows when he is being watch; that has
occured several times in the books.

That 'intuitive sense' could be the sign that he does indeed have
talent in Legilimency, but that talent is wasted because it's too
uncontrolled and sporadic left as is. It may be there when he needs it
 or it may not. But if Harry practices and refines that skill, then he
can use it very effectively. 

I do believe that Harry has some effective skill in Oclumency. Why?
Because he has practiced it with Snape. Those lesson may have appeared
ineffective, but Harry did demonstrate some skill at blocking thoughts
he truly did NOT want seen.

> szehms:
> I also believe his rare to speak  ability Parceltongue will 
> help him.

bboyminn:

Harry's parceltongue is the same as his Legilimency skills, it is too
sporadic and uncontrolled to be counted on in time of crisis UNLESS he
refines that skill.

> szehms:
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Also, Harry's powerful and dedicated friends will certainly 
> help Harry in his quest. ... he has Bill Weasley the 
> "curse-breaker", he has the brilliant Hermoine, he has the 
> talented members of the Order, ... Aberforth will give Harry 
> some tools passed on from DD to help Harry, and IMO Harry will 
> discover at some point the Snape can be of some vital assistance.
> 
> ... 
> 
>  A crash course in curses is not what he needs, he just needs
> to find the power within himself, and IMO he will.
> 
> szehms
>


bboyminn:

I agree and disagree. Yes, Harry has all the resources he needs right
there, fully available to him. What I am saying, is that he is a fool
if he doesn't recognise that he has to tap into those resource and do
it quickly. A crash course in curses IS exactly what Harry needs. 

One problem is, from the character's perspective, they don't know that
they have less than a year before the final showdown. We the readers
know that, but none of the characters do. To them it could be over in
a week, a month, a year, or it could drag on for five years. AND,
Harry has no way of knowing how to apply 'Love'. It may save his bacon
in the end, but until then it is an impractical concept. Since the
timeframe is unknown to Harry, I can accept it if Harry doesn't do
everything all at once, but to completely ignore the skills he so
obviously needs, is really unfathomable and completely unrealistic.

In conclusion, I do agree that from the perspective of the outside
observer, the reader, Love will indeed conquer all in the end, but
from the prespective of the characters, they are fools if they rely on
nothing but that. Love is a great umbrella to hold over the whole
story, but it is nearly worthless to the characters as they prepare or
don't prepare for the task ahead.

I sincerely hope that Harry draws on the talent around him, Bill can
be tremendously helpful, I hope Remus comes to live with him at
Grimmauld Place and that he helps train Harry, I hope Harry draws on
the skills of the twins, I hope he draws on the Hogwart teacher as the
valuable resource that they are, I hope Harry continues the D.A.Club.
If he doesn't, I just don't see anyway to maintain a consistent and
reasonable internal logic to the story. 

Love conquers all in the end, assuming you are still alive when the
end comes.

Steve/Bboyminn