Sorting Hat as Horcrux?

Wed Nov 23 03:44:13 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 143381

Carol earlier:
> > It's true that the diary was *written* when Tom was sixteen (the
> > memory that it contains is himself near the end of his fifth year 
> > and he would have turned sixteen the previous January), but its 
> > original purpose was to "continue Salazar Slytherin's noble work" 
> > of weeding out "Mudbloods" using the Basilisk. It was not 
> > originally a Horcrux, as *he did not know how to make one at that 
> > time*.
> >
> > When he wrote the diary (placed the memory of himself in it), he 
> > had not yet killed his father and grandparents, who were apparently 
> > AK'd the following summer. He returned to school wearing the ring, 
> > which could not have been a Horcrux or he would not have asked 
> > Slughorn how to create one.
> 
> MercuryBlue responded:
> Would you please explain what makes you think that Memory!Tom is 
> separate from SoulFragment!Tom? That seems to be the main point of 
> your argument, that Tom put the memory of his sixteen-year-old self 
> into the diary, then went off and killed his dad and figured out how 
> to make Horcruxes and attached a soul fragment to the diary too. I 
> don't see how the memory is separate from the soul fragment, which 
> does imply that Tom had both killed his family and figured out how 
> to make Horcruxes before he hit seventeen. (Which, in point of fact, 
> was in December.)
> 
> 
Carol again:
I don't think there *is* a "soul fragment Tom." What Tom Riddle
originally put into the diary is a memory of himself in his fifth
year, before he had acquired the ring or killed his parents and
therefore before he had talked to Slughorn about Horcruxes. When he
finally did make the diary into a Horcrux, the memory of Tom already
present apparently acquired new powers (DD says in HBP that a mere
memory could not have possessed Ginny), but he wouldn't have acquired
any new memories. He's still sixteen-year-old, fifth-year Tom.
Anything he knows that occurred after the diary was written comes from
Ginny, not from the addition of the soul fragment (which is the
immortal part of the self, distinct, IMO, from the personality or
identity of the earthly self).

The original purpose of the diary is exactly what Diary!Tom states
that it was: 

"I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was
still at school. But I wasn't going to waste those long years I'd
spent searching for it. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving
my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I
would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar
Slytherin's noble work" (SS Am. ed. 312). 

This is apparently the purpose of the diary that Lucius Malfoy knew
about when he put it into Ginny's cauldron. He knew that the diary
could be used to open the Chamber of Secrets and release the monster
to kill Mugglebloods. What Lucius didn't know was that the diary was
later turned into a Horcrux. And it *had* to be later, for the reasons
I've stated: Tom Riddle didn't know anything about Horcruxes until at
least the next year, when he talked to Slughorn (after killing the
Riddles, as the ring indicates), and even then he didn't have
sufficient information to create one.

Carol earlier:
> > He *may* have discovered it the following summer (between his
sixth and seventh years), possibly by visiting Grindelwald (whose
single Horcrux it appears that Dumbledore later destroyed)
> 
> MercuryBlue:
> Dumb question: Why do you think Grindelwald made a Horcrux? My 
> thought was he's famous only for being defeated by Dumbledore, and 
> is utterly irrelevant now.

Carol again:
Not a dumb question at all. Dumbledore indicates in HBP that at least
one other wizard that both he and Voldemort know about created a
single Horcrux. (Sorry I don't have the quote at my fingertips. I'm
sure it's in the chapter called "Horcruxes," or at least, that's where
I'd expect it to be.) We know that Dumbledore defeated (not killed)
the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945. I speculate that Dumbledore
brought about Grindelwald's defeat by destroying his Horcrux. We also
know that Tom Riddle left school in the summer of 1945. If, after
talking with Slughorn in his sixth year (1943-44), he was determined
to find out more about Horcruxes, and if he knew that Grindelwald had
made one, he could have visited him ("craving" to learn from the
"master," to use the language of the Death Eaters) in the summer of
1944. He already had at least two objects and three or four murders as
preparation for the lesson. What he didn't have was the knowledge
needed to convert them to Horcruxes.

I realize that this is all speculation, but why would JKR have
Dumbledore defeat a Dark Wizard in a year of such significance to
Voldemort if there's no connection? Grindelwald is carefully mentioned
early in SS/PS, just as Scabbers and Sirius Black were. Chances are he
was mentioned for a reason. But, of course, I could be wrong.
> 
> MercuryBlue:
> Can we agree to disagree? It isn't likely that we'll find out which 
> of us is right, after all.

Carol:
Certainly. In fact, I'm not arguing now--just providing the
explanations that you asked for. If I had time, I'd substantiate the
dates and provide more quotes, but it's simpler just to provide the
gist of the argument.
> 
> 
> Carol earlier:
> > Moreover, we've seen that the Sorting Hat has a mind of its own 
> > over and above the "brains" of the four Founders poured into it 
> > when the school was divided into four Houses. It's clearly not 
> > influenced by Tom Riddle's thinking. (JKR says it has never been 
> > wrong.) 
> 
> MercuryBlue:
> JKR didn't actually say it's never been wrong, just that it is
certainly sincere. So it honestly believes it has sent everyone into
the best House for them, whether it's actually the best House for them
or not.

Carol again:
Actually, I can prove you wrong on this one. :-)

Here's the quote, from Melissa Anelli and Emerson Spartz, "The Leaky
Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Two,"
The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm

ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?
JKR: No.
ES: Really?
JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?
ES: I have heard a lot of theories.
JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.
MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice
comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -
JKR: [makes mysterious noise]
MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -
JKR: The founders themselves.

That first "No" is pretty definitive. No suggestion that the Hat is a
Horcrux. Its opinions come from "the founders themselves." And
sincerity (from a different interview
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm ) would be
an odd virtue in a hat infested or possessed by a fragment of Tom
Riddle's soul.

Anyway, I'll just briefly reiterate what I think about the Horcruxes
here, FWIW:

The Sorting Hat is not a Horcrux. (See upthread for reasons.)

The diary was not originally a Horcrux but was transformed into one in
Tom's last year at Hogwarts or later. Until that point, he didn't have
the requisite knowledge to create one.

Tom *may* have visited Grindelwald in the summer of 1944 (or 1945) to
learn about Horcruxes. I don't see who else he could have obtained the
information from.

Both the diary and the ring had been made into Horcruxes before Tom's
visit to Hepzibah Smith to obtain the cup and the locket, as his
altered appearance (red eyes, thin cheeks) indicates.

The cup and the locket were made into Horcruxes after Tom quit Borgin
and Burkes and disappeared, but before the DADA interview with
Dumbledore. (His features are blurred as the result of making so many
Horcruxes, but he is still recognizable to DD and his original followers.)

The unknown fifth Horcrux (the tiara?) may have been created at about
the same time and obtained through similar means, but I don't have a
specific theory regarding it. It was certainly made before he began
recruiting followers around 1971 because his appearance was fully
altered at that point. (DD says that he was unrecognizable as the
formerly handsome Tom Riddle when he began recruiting followers.)

The sixth Horcrux, Nagini, was (IMO) created at about the time LV
returned to England and began recruiting followers. His very close
relationship with Nagini, his resemblance to a snake, his ability to
possess her without destroying her ("in essence divided"), and his
dependence on her "milk" for sustenance in his "fetal" form all result
from her identity as a (mortal) Horcrux with a mind of its (her) own.

Carol, noting that the summary of her current views in the last part
of the post is not intended as an argument