PoA - Snape knew?/Who is the real dark character in the series?

[colebiancardi]

No: HPFGUIDX 143503

Ha! It is now past midnight and I can post again :-) Yeah!! Mixing two
topics that started out as one, but branched off into two different
ones. I had all evening to do this
..


-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbang" <whizbang121 at y...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" <muellem at b...>
> wrote:
>
> > well, that is one way to look at it. But it is an interpretation,
> > not canon that actually stated that Snape knew about Barty Jr or was
> > helping him.
>
> Whiz:
> It's not so much interpretation as looking at the scene from Snape's
 PoV.

Colebiancardi: And that is still interpretation. We don't know
Snape's POV. I could state that Snape's POV is that he is terrified
of Mad-Eye. That he doesn't know it is really Barty Jr and that we do
know that the real Mad-Eye is paranoid – doesn't trust anyone any more
– sees dark wizards everywhere(p 162 GoF Am Ed Hardcover). Moody has
become unpredictable at Hogwarts – using Transfiguration as a
punishment for Draco. In the staircase scene, we find out that
Moody has searched Snape's office, obviously thinking that Snape is
still into dark magics. Fake!Moody also tells Snape that he doesn't
trust him, doesn't believe, as DD does, in second chances – "I say
there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never com
off, you know?" p. 472

It is at this time Snape grabbed his own forearm, which has the Dark
Mark on it (we don't know it yet, of course). However, my
interpretation of the scene, from Snape's POV, is that he is afraid of
Moody, he knows Moody wants any excuse to get him, as Snape was a DE –
and Snape knows that Moody knows. Snape's voice thoughout the scene
is described as coldly, dangerous,, hissing, snarling, and finally of
forced calm. He states his words thru clenched teeth, his nerves are
plainly visible (the vein flickering horribly on Snape's greasy temple
which pulsates more rapidly as he gets upset, his face going red)

This is a showdown between a person that Snape believes to be the real
deal, IMHO, an ex-Auror who put away more DeathEaters than any other.
Snape cannot afford to have Moody bring trumped up charges against
him, as even DD may not be able to get him out of this one. Snape
doesn't believe that DD gave Moody permission to search Snape's
office. Moody doesn't deny this.

So, you have your interpretation of the scene from your vision of
Snape's POV and I have mine.


> colebiancardi:
> My interpretation of those scenes, starting with the
> > staircase showdown, was that Snape was afraid of Mad-Eye, because
> > Mad-Eye/Jr made threats about getting DE's who got away. Also, at
> > this time we didn't know Snape was an ex-DE who was spying for DD. It
> > could have been that Snape didn't want Mad-Eye poking around in his
> > head and that Snape has had his office searched by Mad-Eye/Jr against
> > Snape's wishes.
> >
> > The second scene outside of DD's office - I just chalked that up to
> > Snape being, well, Snape. He has no love for Harry. Or maybe he knew
> > that DD was coming down and wanted to torment Harry a bit. Not saying
> > it is right that Snape does this, but that is how I viewed it.
>
> Whiz:
> And that is Harry's PoV, and we all know that Harry is so dreadfully
> uninformed about nearly everything that his PoV is hopelessly limited
> by the little information he does have. Remember, Snape grabbed the
> Dark Mark on his arm and Harry had no idea why. At that point,
 neither did we, but we discovered the reason later on.

Yes, I will agree that Harry's POV is hopeless limited, which is why I
am in the DDM!Snape camp.

>
> colebiancardi:
> > The Foe-Glass to me tells me that Snape is not helping Barty. That is
> > canon -
> > "Oh that's my Foe-Glass. See them out there, skulking around? I'm
> > not really in trouble until I see the whites of their eyes". p 343 Am
> > Ed Hardcover GoF
> >
> > "Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still
> > starting at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus
> > Dumbledore, Professor Snape and Professor McGonagall looking back at
> > him out of the Foe-Glass". p. 679 GoF
>
> Whiz:
> Why would you think this means that Snape did not help BartyJr? If he
> helped Crouch/Moody against his will while plotting against him,
> wouldn't he show up in the foe glass? Remember, Barty hates a DE that
> got away, and Snape would like to do just that.
> But, BartyJr answers to Vodle, and Snape can't take the chance that
> BartyJr will carry tales of his disloyalty back to the DL. He may not
> want to be a DE, but Snape still has that nasty tattoo on his arm.
>

colebiancardi: First off, you didn't state that Snape was helping
Barty Jr against Snape's will. You mentioned that Snape KNEW that
Moody was really Barty Jr and that he was helping him. I am a little
confused by your argument now about Snape would want to get away, when
he knows Voldemort is coming. He has known it a long time and has
told DD about it, with his Dark Mark getting clearer. So, is Snape
working for Voldemort or not? Again, this is interpretation on your
part. It is not canon that is everywhere.

The Foe Glass scene is the best example we have that Snape is not
helping Jr. Otherwise, one could also argue that McGonagall or
Dumbledore could have been helping Jr, as well. Which we know they
did not.


> colebiancardi:
> > but isn't Snape's own life in danger once all the muggleborns &
> > half-bloods are gone - there are no half-breeds, they are called
> > half-bloods.
>
> Whiz:
>Hagrid, Fleur and Flitwick are all halfbreeds.

Colebiancardi: Ok, I thought you were referring to half-breeds as
something else. Sure, there are half-breeds, but it doesn't seem to
be a common thing in the WW. Nothing is said about eliminating
half-breeds, to my recollection. Just muggle-borns & half-bloods.
There is a hatred towards half-breeds, but Voldemort has not declared
war on them yet.

> Why would Snape's life be in danger? Purebloods tolerate half bloods.
> As Hermione points out, the DEs would be happy to have Ron or Harry,
> it's muggleborns like her they want to eliminate.

Colebiancardi: Ron is a pureblood, so that doesn't count. Yes,
purebloods might tolerate half-bloods to get what they want, eliminate
muggle-borns, but after that? When does it stop? Half-bloods are
born from a muggle & a wizard. Just like Hitler wanted to wipe out
the Jews, they had degrees of how much Jewish blood was acceptable and
even at that, the punishment of being just a little bit Jewish was
very harsh.

Snape should worry.


>
> colebiancardi:
> > Remember, many in the wizarding community thought that LV was on the
> > right track until LV got it into his head that non-purebloods
> > should be destroyed.
>
> Whiz: ??????
>
> QUOTE OotP page 6:
> "No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea,
> they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid
> of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone,
> either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his
> true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things... they
> got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power,
> though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero
> for joining up at first."
>
> They thought that Voldemort had the right idea when he did want to
> purify the race. They changed their minds when they realized he
> wanted power for himself.
>
colebiancardi: That is the quote I was looking for. No, they didn't
change their minds because Voldy wanted power for himself – I mean,
what did they think, when he calls himself LORD Voldemort? No, the
quote is and you did quote it – They got cold feet when they saw what
he was prepared TO DO TO GET POWER, not that they got cold feet when
they saw he wanted power. See, even the Germans who may have agreed
with Hilter about the Jews, about moving them away into ghettos and
separating them into camps, if THEY knew that Hitler was planning to
exterminate all the Jews, I doubt they would have followed him. And I
am talking about the civilians, of course. The WW who agreed with
Voldemort about the purification of their race, probably didn't want
muggle-borns OR half-bloods – as the only way you can have a
half-blood is by having a child with a muggle. They didn't want the
races to intermingle. So, purification and extermination are two
different things. Voldemort's true colors were that he wasn't content
in separating the 2 worlds – he wanted to eliminate one of the worlds
completely.


>
> colebiancardi:
> > > I'll take it a step further. I believe that Snape's animagus is an
> > > insect, a buzzing insect to be precise. And I'm toying with the
idea
> > > that he's Draco's godfather, though I'm fuzzy on that one.
> >
> > what does Snape's animagus have to do with Snape helping Barty Jr?
> > And many people have stated they believe that Snape's animagus is also
> > an insect - a bee, in fact. To show loyality to DD.
>
> Whiz:
> QUOTE PoA, ch 16:
> 'Harry was now the only person left to be tested. He settled himself
> on the floor with his back against the wall, listening to a fly
> buzzing in the sunny window, his mind across the grounds with Hagrid.'
>
> This was immediately before Trelawney gave Harry her second prophesy.
>

colebiancardi: and so? This was in June – "the days became cloudless
& sultry and all anybody felt like doing was strolling onto the
grounds and flopping down on the grass with several pints of iced
pumpkin juice, perhaps playing a casual game of Gobstones or watching
the giant squid propel itself dreamily across the surface of the lake"
p 314 PoA Am Hardcover edition. Same chapter as yours. It is hot,
sultry, and springtime – bugs do appear in the springtime. As Snape
is a professor and this is final exam time, don't you think he
probably is testing his own classes? I highly doubt that is Snape.
But that is your interpretation of the scene.

> QUOTE OotP ch 31
> 'It was several seconds before it occurred to him that he had not
> taken in a word of it; there was a wasp buzzing distractingly against
> one of the high windows. Slowly, tortuously, he at last began to write
> an answer.'

> This was immediately before Harry, unable to think straight, slipped
> into the corridor dream. I'm suggesting that Snape is responsible for
> both. And Snape gives a good explanation of the confundus charm and
> it's effects at the end of PoA.

Colebiancardi: Again, with the bugs! It is June again, hot, time
for finals, in this case O.W.L.S for Harry. Don't you have bugs in
June? The problem with your "bug is Snape" theory is that there are
two different bugs – one being a fly and the other a wasp. Totally
different. Is there any canon that a wizard animagus can turn into
different animals? Hermione would have told us this one, I am sure :-)

Also, the final he was taking was a) with three hours of sleep (p.724
OotP Am Ed Hardcover), and b) History of Magic. I doubt that Harry
needs to be confunded by any wizard in this course, as Harry is
hopeless in it as it is. The corridor dream is not due to Snape, but
to Voldemort and Harry's connection.


>
> > Purebloods like the Malfoys would never have a half-blood like Snape
> > be in any way, shape or form, connected somehow in the family. A
> > godfather's role is to help raise the child if the parents die or to
> > offer spiritual advise. The Malfoys use Snape and he uses them back.
> > I doubt think Snape is *that* close to the Malfoys at all.
>
> Whiz:
> The books suggest otherwise. Narcissa calls Snape, Lucius good
> friend. And we know nothing about Snape's mother or her connections
> in the magical world.

Colebiancardi: Yes, she does call him that – and why? Because she
WANTS something from him. You don't go and insult a person whom you
are trying to get help from? And in this case, the request can kill
Snape if he doesn't follow through. Snape has been described as
Lucius's lapdog, by Sirius. Not a very positive description of a
"good friend". Narcissa is buttering Snape up, to get him to help
her. And what a "good friend" the Malfoys are – if Snape can't do
Draco's deed, if Draco fails, Snape will die. Oh yeah, I want good
friends like that. Not :-) The books give a mixed reaction to Snape's
role with the Malfoys.

We don't know much about Eileen, that is true. But, she could not
have been a big Voldemort supporter, as a) she married a muggle and b)
we don't hear her name as a DE.

>
> colebiancardi:
> > I think Snape is the go-to guy for them, but a godfather?
>
> Whiz:
> Snape is an extrememly powerful wizard, well versed in the Dark Arts
> and with unknown familial connections. Now if you were a dark wizard
 choosing a godfather for your child .....


colebiancardi: Not with the Malfoy's pureblood mania. Can't see it.

> >
> > colebiancardi
> > (interpretation of scenes is not canon. Otherwise, all my bright
> > ideas could be called canon as well!!)
>
> Whiz: I would argue that extrapolation is not canon. But I'm not sure
> that looking at scenes from a different point of view is noncanonical.
> I didn't change a word or extrapolate any possibilities. I merely
> looked at the scene on the stairs from the point of view of someone
> with more backstory and information than Harry had at that time.
>

I would argue that unless it is right there in print, that it is
noncanoncial. You didn't change a word, but you came to conclusions
that were YOUR interpretation of the scene. Flys, wasps = Snape?
That is major guesswork. Which we all do. But it is your opinion and
it is not canon. You don't know Snape's POV and you don't know the
backstory – if you did, we all would and there would be no guesswork,
which is what JKR wants. I don't mind people's guesswork &
interpretations – I do it and I enjoy it when others do it as well.
But to state it is canon & all around? That is stretching it a bit,
don't you think?


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:



>colebiancardi:The reason why Harry went after Snape was pure emotion
and fantasy:
> > "Terror tore at Harry's heart...He had to get to Dumbledore and he
> had
> > to catch Snape....Somehow the two things were linked...He could
> > reverse what had happened if he had them both together...Dumbledore
> > could not have died..." HBP, p. 598
>
> Alla:
>
> Erm... I think that it does not matter whether Harry's hatred of
> Snape goes way back. In fact I don't think it goes THAT back. Before
> end of OOP I don't remember Harry saying that he ever HATED Snape,
> but of course he hated Snape during HBP, no argument from me.
>
> I cannot agree that ANY decent person after witnessing the murder of
> his beloved mentor( Of course it is just my interpretation) right in
> front of his eyes can do anything else but to try and catch the
> murderer. In fact, if Harry started rationalizing his actions , I
> would think that there is something very, very wrong with him.
>

colebiancardi: there is a difference between rationalizing ones
actions and having a PLAN. Why didn't Harry ask for help from Ernie?
Why did he have to "go it alone" with Snape? If Harry used half of
his brain, I would think that he was finally growing up to be the
wizard he should be. Harry's emotions are so off-the-charts at this
time – he actually thinks that getting Snape will bring DD back – I am
worried about that. Harry has to start thinking things through. He
was on the right track with Draco in this book; I do hope he can grow
further into adulthood and start thinking. Hermione isn't always
going to be there for him.

>
>
> Colebiancardi:
> > Harry is not thinking clearly at this point. Not that I blame him.
> > However, what happened on the tower added to the years of hatred &
> > mistrust Harry has felt towards Snape, even though Dumbledore told
> him
> > otherwise. There was nothing to be gained by catching & killing
> Snape
> > other than to *avenge* the death of Dumbledore, based on what Harry
> > saw on the tower.
>
> Alla:
>
> Well, as I said above to me it would be very weird if Harry started
> to think what is to be GAINED by catching Snape at that moment. Of
> course it added to the years of hatred and mistrust, Snape just
> killed Dumbledore.
>

colebiancardi: No, I am not asking if Harry should think that. Of
course not. But Harry should think gee, what if I die going after 4
DE's(one who is a werewolf), Draco & Snape? What are the odds on my
surviving THAT one? Snape "killed" DD, but was it on DD's orders?
Are you stating that doesn't matter at all, if that is what it turns
out to be? Or maybe Snape didn't kill DD, that he released him from
whatever was keeping DD alive the whole year – as that is my
interpretation with the hand injury and the general weakness of DD and
his impatience with Harry about Slughorn's memory. I believe that DD
knew he was out of time. And so did Snape.
>
> Colebiancardi:
> > Harry is making the case against Snape not by facts, but by twisting
> > the words of Dumbledore to make his case against Snape. Even if I
> > believed in ESE!Snape, I would say that is dishonest of Harry and he
> > will do anything to further his grudge and try to make others follow
> > him down this path. I think that even you would agree that Harry's
> > grudge against Snape begins a lot earlier than that night on the
> > tower.
>
> Alla:
>
> Sorry, I disagree. Harry makes the case against Snape by facts and
> the facts are he just witnessed him killing Headmaster. Could it be
> that Harry has limited evidence and he would have to reevaluate his
> judgment later? Of course, but right now with the evidence he has, I
> completely disagree that Harry is acting to further his "grudge",
> which I even disagree should be called so.

Colebiancardi: Please don't mix what I posted about the reason why
Snape was trusted by DD by what Harry witnessed in the tower. I
specifically posted that Harry FURTHERED his grudge by misstating what
Dumbledore told him about Snape to the rest of the staff in that
scene. The staff was questioning why did Dumbledore trust Snape so
explicitly – Harry was quick to jump on board with his version, which
was a twisted rendition of what DD told him. And everyone was in
disbelief that DD believed that excuse. Harry, although he doesn't do
this on purpose, has made Dumbledore look like a fool. Harry is
still in overdrive at this moment, "who wanted every detail of Snape's
duplicity and infamy, feverishly collecting more reasons to hate him,
to swear vengance" p. 617 HBP Am Ed Hardcover. This scene is not
right after DD has died, Harry has had time to give chase to Snape, go
and view DD's body, read the RAB note, see Bill and then the staff
comes in. That quote tells me that Harry wants more & more fuel to
add to his fire, his grudge – he wants to further it with more & more
details – from other's POV, of course.

And finally,
>>Lupinlore wrote:
>>I have never understood why people in the DDM!Snape camp are so very
>>insistent that Snape NOT be blamed or punished for his grudges and
>>vengeful behavior, but insist that Harry must forgive Snape in
>>order to be one of the good guys. Seems like doublethink to me.

Colebiancardi: I think you are coming from this on the assumption that
Snape is evil – and I doubt that I or any other DDM!Snape believers
have ever stated that Harry must forgive Snape if Snape is truly evil.
If Snape isn't evil, why would you want Harry to kill him or not
understand what happened? Snape not be blamed or punished for his
grudges or vengeful behavior – I think he has been punished – look at
where he ended up at – at Hogwarts, teaching a bunch of dunderheads.
Snape's grudges were also Sirius's grudges – I don't remember anyone
stating Sirius needed to let go of his grudge towards Snape. Snape
has a lot of issues dealing with certain students, but if that was
something that DD didn't want the students to be exposed to, he would
not have hired Snape in as a teacher. DD wanted the kids to be
exposed to people like Snape – character building, perhaps? I said
that tongue in cheek, as I cannot defend Snape's behavior towards
Neville. His behavior towards Harry I can understand, but I don't
like it. Other than that and a rude comment or two to Hermione, has
Snape ever been nasty to other students? You would think with Fred &
George in Snape's class, they would be in trouble all the time with
him, yet we don't really see that happening. So, Snape's behavior
is limited to a few chosen students, which doesn't excuse him, but it
isn't as if he is on the warpath with the student population or something.

I believe Snape will die in book 7. What I have stated is that
Harry should concentrate on getting rid of Voldemort – he should not
continue with this blind hatred of Snape. Harry won't win on that
emotion. If Snape is truly evil & still alive at the end, then
Harry can go for him. Or if Snape gets in the way before Voldemort's
fall, Harry can get rid of him. But Harry should not pour any more
emotional reasons into Snape – it is a major detraction from his true
goal – the one that DD wanted to him to do – remember? Harry is way
too concerned about Snape that the true Evil in the story, which you
think is cartoonish. I don't think Voldy is cartoonish. He is the
perfect villain – whereas Snape is not the perfect villain; if he was,
you wouldn't have people split down the middle about Snape at this
point & time.

Methinks you are placing all the DDM!Snape's into one category and
that is a tad dishonest.


sorry for the long post, but that is what happens when there is a
3-post a day limit.


Colebiancardi – ahhh, when is book 7 coming out? LOL.