PoA - Snape knew?/Who is the real dark character in the series?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 143511

Colebiancardi wrote:

> And that is still interpretation. We don't know Snape's POV. I could
state that Snape's POV is that he is terrified of Mad-Eye. That he
doesn't know it is really Barty Jr and that we do know that the real
Mad-Eye is paranoid – doesn't trust anyone any more – sees dark
wizards everywhere(p 162 GoF Am Ed Hardcover). Moody has become
unpredictable at Hogwarts – using Transfiguration as a punishment for
Draco. In the staircase scene, we find out that Moody has searched
Snape's office, obviously thinking that Snape is still into dark
magics. Fake!Moody also tells Snape that he doesn't trust him, doesn't
believe, as DD does, in second chances – "I say there are spots that
don't come off, Snape. Spots that never com[e] off, you know?" p. 472
> 
> It is at this time Snape grabbed his own forearm, which has the Dark
Mark on it (we don't know it yet, of course). However, my
interpretation of the scene, from Snape's POV, is that he is afraid of
Moody, he knows Moody wants any excuse to get him, as Snape was a DE –
and Snape knows that Moody knows. Snape's voice thoughout the scene is
described as coldly, dangerous, hissing, snarling, and finally of
forced calm. He states his words thru clenched teeth, his nerves are
plainly visible (the vein flickering horribly on Snape's greasy temple
> which pulsates more rapidly as he gets upset, his face going red)
> 
> This is a showdown between a person that Snape believes to be the
real deal, IMHO, an ex-Auror who put away more DeathEaters than any
other. Snape cannot afford to have Moody bring trumped up charges
against him, as even DD may not be able to get him out of this one.
Snape doesn't believe that DD gave Moody permission to search Snape's
office. Moody doesn't deny this.
> 
> So, you have your interpretation of the scene from your vision of
> Snape's POV and I have mine.

Carol responds:
I agree that in this scene Snape still thinks that Crouch!Moody is the
real Moody (he can't suspect Barty Jr., whom he believes to be dead),
and that he regards ex-Auror Moody as an enemy out to besmirch his
reputation or even send him to Azkaban. He may also have his
suspicions regarding "Moody's" motives and character (as he always
does about the DADA teacher): "Moody" has not only Transfigured a
student as punishment (against the rules), he has demonstrated illegal
curses and used one of them on his students, and he has broken into
Snape's office. Snape *thinks* he's looking for evidence of Dark magic
(that's Crouch!Moody's cover), but I'm guessing that he was really
looking for Polyjuice Potion ingredients that time, as we know he was
doing the second time (the night of the staircase incident).

I don't think that Snape is "terrified" of "Moody," however. First,
it's not in character. Snape seldom shows fear, and when he does, he
turns pale and his eyes glitter, as when he goes off at the end of GoF
to report to Voldemort. Snape is not a coward; I think what he's
feeling here is resentment and frustration. His remark, "Dumbledore
trusts me!" shows that he resents "Moody's" suspicions, especially
since "Moody" seems to implying that Snape is an unreformed Death
Eater (when in fact he means a DE who escaped punishment, unlike
himself) and that Snape put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire (which,
of course, he didn't do). Snape knows that Harry is standing there in
his Invisibility Cloak hearing the conversation, but he can't do
anything about it, and he's also frustrated and angry that "Moody" has
confiscated the piece of parchment that he by now knows or suspects is
a map. So I don't think he's afraid, just forced to control his anger.
(There may be a touch of jealousy as well if he thinks that "Moody"
has taken his place as DD's righthand man.)

As for the Dark Mark hurting Snape when "Moody" mentions it, my theory
has always been that it burns Snape (and no other Death Eater) when
it's mentioned or when Voldemort's name is spoken (Snape grabs his arm
in a similar way when Harry says the name during an Occlumency lesson)
because the mark senses that Snape is *disloyal* to Voldemort and is
punishing him. I also think that Crouch!Moody, who apparently sends
messages to Voldemort using an eagle owl, reports his suspicions of
Snape to Voldemort, and that this report is one reason why Voldemort
refers to Snape in the graveyard scene as the "one I believe has left
me forever."

Snape is most definitely not aiding "Moody," who puts the name into
the Goblet, turns it into a portkey, and helps Harry to win the
tournament with no aid whatever from Snape. Nor does Snape have any
idea who he really is, as shown by his "stop[ping] dead in the
doorway" and saying "Barty Crouch!" in a startled voice when the
Polyjuice Potion wears off. (Barty Jr. has been "dead" for something
like thirteen years.) I think, though, that Snape's suspicions have
been aroused by "Moody's" odd behavior and it's likely that he reports
the incident on the stairs to Dumbledore, who is trying to figure out
who might have put Harry's name in the Goblet. Even if Snape doesn't
suspect that "Moody" is an imposter, he clearly regards him as an
enemy and he always wants to place the DADA teacher in a bad light.

Whizbang wrote:

> > But, BartyJr answers to Vodle, and Snape can't take the chance
that BartyJr will carry tales of his disloyalty back to the DL. He may
not want to be a DE, but Snape still has that nasty tattoo on his arm.

Carol responds:
As I said above, I think Barty Jr. *has* owled Voldemort with tales of
Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore and that those messages are one reason
(along with Snape's thwarting Quirrell three years earlier and his not
being in the graveyard when he was summoned) why Voldie suspects
Snape's disloyalty. If Snape had known that "Moody" was really Crouch
Jr. and they were really on the same side, he would not have mentioned
DD's faith in him. The remark has the opposite effect he intended,
increasing rather than decreasing "Moody's" distrust of Snape.

BTW, the Dark Mark not a tattoo, a Muggle method of permanently
decorating the skin using ink and needles, but a mark burned onto his
forearm with some sort of curse, quite possibly Morsmordre. The Dark
Mark, as Crouch!Moody says, doesn't come off, but Snape uses it in
ways for which it was not intended, reporting its darkening to
Dumbledore and showing it to Fudge later in the book as proof that
Voldemort has come back. (That action in itself shows that he is not a
coward afraid of punishment and that he is loyal to Dumbledore.) So
just because he still has the Dark Mark doesn't mean he's still a
loyal DE. He chooses to remain at Hogwarts with Dumbledore, not to run
away like Karkaroff ("Then flee! Flee--I will make your excuses. I ,
however, will remain at Hogwarts") and not to return to Voldemort
until Dumbledore sends him. Dark Mark or no Dark Mark, it's clear to
me that in GoF, at least, Snape's loyalties lie with Dumbldeore.

Colebiancardi wrote: 
> The Foe Glass scene is the best example we have that Snape is not
helping Jr. Otherwise, one could also argue that McGonagall or
Dumbledore could have been helping Jr, as well. Which we know they did
not.

Carol responds:
Exactly. Both Snape and McGonagall are working for Dumbledore against
whoever put Harry's name in the Goblet and tried to kill him, whether
that person is the real Moody or a DE in disguise. I agree that
Snape's showing up in the Foe Glass is our best evidence of DDM!Snape,
especially when combined with showing Fudge the Dark Mark and placing
himself in peril to return to Voldemort on DD's orders. (His version
of his actions in "Spinner's End" must be placed in the context of his
audience and motives in that chapter. He's not about to tell Bellatrix
that he obeyed Dumbledore as part of a prearranged plan ["If you are
ready, if you are prepared"] and that he's really Dumbledore's man.
He's trying to convince her that he's loyal to Voldemort.) 

Carol