UV = DDM?

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 140995

 


Juli wrote:

> > 2. Dumbledore knows about the UV, but  does not  
> > tell Draco because he does not want Draco to be  
> > entirely sure that Snape  is DDM, not at this
point  
> > (in order to protect Snape if Draco does manage to
> >  become a murderer).

> I'm just curious, since you didn't add a  rebuttal
> "but" clause
> to #2, exactly what is wrong with it that  it doesn't
> have 
> solid merit like 1a &1c. I happen to like  #2 myself,
> and 
> it's not really convoluted (though #3 is,  IMO).

Mira:
Before denying that the UV took place, Dumbledore  says
to Draco:

----

"I was sure it was you."

"Why didn't  you stop me, then?", Malfoy demanded.

"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape  has been keeping
watch over you on my orders..."

[...]

"He's a  double-agent, you stupid old man, he isn't
working for you, you just think he  is!"

"We must agree to differ on that, Draco. It so happens
that I  trust Professor Snape -"

----

I find these pieces of information  incriminating
enough for Snape. Was it necessary to provide them? I
don't  think so. Dumbledore could have simply said that
he had watched over Draco  closer than Draco might have
thought, or that he did not bother to stop him  because
he knew he would never become a murderer. I don't
think it is  logical to thrust Snape's name into the
discussion, especially in no  uncertain terms, if
Dumbledore's aim was to protect Snape.

I do agree  that explanation 2 is the most
straightforward. But in that case, I don't  believe
that Dumbledore handled his exchange with Draco very
wisely.
 
 
Julie now:
I'm not sure Dumbledore was giving anything away. Draco
knows Dumbledore believes Snape is on his side, even if
Draco thinks Snape is really fooling him. So Dumbledore
reinforcing that impression by saying he had Snape watch
Draco, and that he trusted Snape, isn't really making any
difference, nor endangering Snape. In fact, it could be 
Dumbledore's way of reinforcing his apparent naivete about
Snape, so when Snape kills him that act will reinforce 
Draco's certainty that Snape is really Voldemort's man.
 

Julie earlier:
> I think there is another possibility, especially  if 
> Dumbledore
> is dying from the Ring Horcrux. He is running out  of
>  time,
> and has to prepare Harry as best he can  with
> borrowed time
> he does have left. That means Harry needs to  learn
> about 
> his enemy (so Dumbledore suddenly takes a  very
> active
> teaching role, showing Harry how Tom became
>  Voldemort),
> Harry needs to learn about Horcruxes (so Dumbledore
>  must
> get Slughorn to Hogwarts to access that memory of
> his),  and
> Harry needs to learn about nonverbal spells (so
>  Dumbledore
> gives Snape--the most skilled wizard he has at
>  hand--the 
> DADA  position). Dumbledore has to do it all  this
> school year
> because he knows he won't be around next  school
> year. 


Mira:
It is a very good point. I have not thought about it
before but  yes, it could have been that Dumbledore
thought Snape was the best available  man for the job
so he gave it to him, despite the risk.

Except I don't  believe that Dumbledore was dying from
his hand injury. But even so, time is  an important
resource and your explanation makes perfect sense.
 
Julie now:
Agreed. Even if the Ring horcrux wasn't killing Dumbledore,
I suspect Dumbledore already knew he was going after 
another horcrux (thus his need for Slughorn's memory to
verify his belief that more exist). Dumbledore might well
have expected the next horcrux curse would kill him--
certainly it would be a strong possibility--thus time is
of the essence. 

Julie earlier:  
> I'm not sure I see  how this proves Dumbledore didn't
> 
> trust Snape. Again, if he  figures one way or the
> other
> Snape will no longer be at  Hogwarts, giving him the 
> DADA position  doesn't change that  outcome. 

Mira:
Suppose Snape was not given the DADA job, so  in
principle he could have stayed on for an extra year.
Then nothing would  have prevented Draco to kill
Dumbledore (I believe the headmaster was fully  aware
of the nature of Draco's mission), and Snape could
have persuaded  Minerva to open the school for the next
year and continue to deliver  information to Voldemort
about Harry's movements. This, of course,  supposing
Snape is not entirely ESG. I thought that Dumbledore
gave Snape  the DADA job this year in order to prevent
this outcome from  happening.

But I concede that your explanation is more satisfying
than  mine. In which case, we are back to being able to
believe that Dumbledore's  faith in Snape was as
boundless as proffered.
 
 
Julie now:
I don't know about boundless, but whatever *really* made
Dumbledore put his trust in Snape, I believe he did trust
Snape completely, at least on the issue of helping him
with his plan to see Voldemort defeated. After all, what's
the point of having a spy that you can't completely trust?
It's pretty much an all or nothing proposition. I also think
Snape had the opportunity to screw things up royally a 
million different times and ways through the years if he'd
wanted to, not the least of which would be by killing Harry
(or letting him die, in the case of PS/SS), but he never 
did. I just can't quite wrap my mind around Snape waiting
until this late moment to take out Dumbledore and return
to Voldemort. Why now, instead of when Dumbledore 
faced death from the Ring horcrux curse, for instance? 

Julie  earlier:
> But he also knew Snape was about to kill him, and I 
>  have to believe his words and whatever silent 
> communication
>  passed between them also addressed that fact. I
don't
> think he was  telling Snape in so many words to kill 
> him,
> but encouraging  Snape to do what *must* be done to 
> keep
> Harry and Hogwarts  safe, i.e.--"You must strike the 
> final
> blow. I'm already dying,  you can't save me, so you 
> must save yourself." (And Harry, Hogwarts,  Draco, 
> etc).

Mira:
All this assumes that Dumbledore knew  about the UV. He
seems earnest enough to me when he tells Draco that  it
did not happen, but I would appreciate it if you could
point me to some  clear clues on the contrary.

Julie now:
When Harry told Dumbledore about the UV, Dumbledore
said he already knew about it, in fact that he knew more 
than Harry. Now, he might have just been saying that, but 
I tend to take Dumbledore at his word. And what "more"

entails isn't expressly spoken, but I think it's a canon clue
that Dumbledore did know the entire contents of Snape's
Unbreakable Vow. Not proof, of course, but a clue. 
 
I'd include the fact that Dumbledore didn't seem surprised
by Snape's appearance on the tower or what was about to
happen. If he had been, I think he'd have seemed puzzled, 
and said something like, "Severus, what's going on?" rather
than pleading "Please..." before Snape ever pulled out his
wand. That pleading to me seemed to be a supplication for 
whatever it was he wanted Snape to do (or not do, if one
believes Snape was turning on him).
 
No, Dumbledore wasn't surprised at all by Snape's arrival,
He already knew what Snape was about to do before Snape
even took any action, whether he'd been expecting for weeks
that it was coming, or only from the moment he saw the Dark 
Mark over Hogwarts, indicating the situation had morphed into 
the dreaded worst case scenario . That's how the scene read 
to me, anyway.
 
Julie 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]