The cave potion and soul pieces (Re: OFH! Snape again )

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 141049


> > Valky:
> > Without assumptions of what DD 'figuratively' means by 'exchange',
> > there is no reason at all to think it was destroyed. If we take it
> > perfectly literally as given then Dumbledore is with certainty
> > saying that he gave his hand, and got Voldemorts soul given back
> > to him in return.
> 
> Jen: See, I read that a different way: DD gave up his wand hand, a 
> very crucial part of being a wizard, to destroy the soul piece. One 
> death in exchange for one death. If his wand hand were merely 
> injured, then the soul piece would only be injured, too. But the 
> hand is dead, so the soul piece is dead. 


Valky:
I see what you mean, I don't think it *has* to to be read that way,
basically since Hermione's observation that it had died, was never
actually corroborated by Dumbledore. Dumbledores words specifically,
(that there was a terrible curse on the ring, his quick thinking and
Snape saved him from certain death, and the two quotes I mentioned
before), substantiate reading it the way I proposed, I think, but I
can also concede that you have a fair point. 
 
OTOH there is some counter argument to that too. Early in the book
Harry observed Dumbledore favouring his damaged hand as though there
was pain in it. This suggests that Hermione may actually have been
mistaken in her hypothesis, as I suspect a 'dead hand wouldn't feel pain.

Now that I say that, we've seen dead and pain in the same sentence
before! That's fascinating.
When Harry was possessed directly by Voldemort he 'knew he was dead'
and at the same time was in excrutiating pain. 


> 
> > > Jen: OK, that moment alone might be worth your theory being 
> > > true! Except Snape passed up the perfect opportunity to lay his 
> > > guilt trip on Harry when H. screamed for him to 'kill me, like 
> > > you did him, coward!' (paraphrased).
>  
> > Valky:
> > Aha! but read again Jen, they aren't yelling about Dumbledore
> > Harry is not accusing him of killing Dumbledore, he's accusing him
> > of killing James.
> 
> Jen: Pippin mentioned that intepretation, so I have read and re-read 
> that passage. I do see Snape is referring to James previous to 
> the "kill me like you did him" quote by Harry. The ambiguous part to 
> me is Snape has no idea Harry knows he was the eavesdropper. 
> Dumbledore never told Snape's story to anyone. Snape doesn't know a 
> mere few hours before Harry heard Trelawney spill the beans. 

Valky:
I actually do agree you have a point there, but I'd go so far as to
imagine that since Snape knows more than Harry does about the moments
surrounding his parents death, there may be even more yet to the story
that adds to Snapes culpability in James murder. 

Jen:
> It seems to me even if Harry is referring to James, Snape 
> would automatically think of the AK cast at Dumbledore b/c that's 
> the person he 'killed' so recently and Harry was there to see it 
> (which Snape must have known when he saw the two brooms and no 
> Harry, or because DD told him he was taking Harry to the cave).
> 

Valky:
I can imagine Snape thinking that Harry was talking about Dumbledore
in that moment *if* his only involvement in James death was passing on
the prophecy, but we don't know for sure that this is all there is,
yet, there is still a lot of story to be told. In the heat of the
moment, Harry accuses him of killing his father, and Snape doesn't
deny it, which could even mean that Snape *is more* responsible than
we or Hrry know. He doesn't have to be full aware of what Harry knows
if he truly is guilty, he only needs to remember his own part in it.


Jen:
> possible Dumbledore warned Snape that Harry found out the truth in 
> the five minutes it took Harry to get his cloak, but we aren't privy 
> to that.

Valky:
I seriously doubt it. Dumbledore wouldn't go out of his way to pass
this kind of information. OTOH Snape is capable of assuming that Harry
knows everything about it anyway, the way he was assumed by so many
people to have known why he should hate Sirius Black, and the way the
DE's and Voldemort assumed he knew of the prophecy.


> Jen:
> > > Possession would explain how Voldemort was able to keep the
> > > potion-drinker "alive long enough to find out how they managed
> > > to penetrate so far through his defenses, and most importantly
> > > of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin." (chap.
> > > 26, p. 569, Scholastic)
>  
> > Valky:
> > Sorry, Jen, I don't understand how it explains that.
> 
> Jen: What I meant is if the potion has some type of essence of 
> Voldemort in it that can possess the person drinking it, Voldemort 
> would then be able to see into the person's thoughts and feelings to 
> figure out why the person is in the cave, how he found it in the 
> first place, and why the person is emptying the basin. After 
> Voldemort has accessed the information he needs, he leaves the body 
> and the person dies, ala Quirrell, or a stronger wizard would still 
> be alive but very weak. Some aspect of the potion would kick in to 
> make the drinker crave water and drink from the lake. That would be 
> the poison and would also line up with Dumbledore's idea the potion 
> isn't meant to 'kill immediately' because it doesn't actually do the 
> killing, the water does.

Valky:
Ahh I understand know, but this IMO is kin to saying the Locket was
not the Horcrux, the potion was. I am absolutely certain that noone
(not even Voldemort) Voldemort can possess without using the soul.

> 
> > Saraquel:
> > That the soul-part would possess anyone who tried to destroy it is 
> > the perfect defence,IMO and soooo Voldemort.
> > 
> > That if the Ring HSP (horcrux soul part)had already posessed DD, 
> > then Snape would know that and DD's pleading on the tower makes 
> > complete sense, "I'm possessed by the horcrux we went after 
> > tonight, you must kill me in this situation."  Snape would have
> > known that DD was going after a horcrux IMO, as he would have
> > forewarned Snape to be ready.

Valky:
I have reached my ten thousandth take on the pleading, so I am having
a milestone celebration <g> 
Severus Please.....
"Don't let the DE's see me die of the potion. And don't let them
strike the final blow, Voldemorts soul will flee to them and he'll
find out, so do it quickly."

It could also go this way.. 

DD - Severus, I believe, what we need is a diversion, blast me off the
tower.. 
SS - Not Fair! This is Potters work isn't it? You want me to protect
that stupid boy again.
DD - Severus please, just carry out this order.

 
> Valky:
> > I have been mulling over the thought that somehow Snape and
> > Dumbledore managed to stop the possession and life drain, but not
> > indefinitely, hence DD preparing for his death. It would makes
> > sense that the entry point of the curse would reflect the madness
> > within, and I think this is in the nature of Voldemorts curses
> > deliberately. 
> 
> Jen: So this is where the soul piece would still be inside 
> Dumbledore? Maybe I'm thinking too much about the diary, but it 
> seems like if the ring is destroyed, the soul piece would be too. 
> Maybe it did enter Dumbeldore and that's what caused him to be near-
> death, but then I do think the evil spirit/soul was cast out somehow 
> by Snape and when it was destroyed, as it left DD's body, it 
> withered his wand hand in the process. 

Valky:
It occurs to me that the Diary and the Ring were probably destroyed in
different ways. I deduce that Dumbledore may have attempted to
re-enact to the best of his ability, the way Harry destroyed the
Diary, but he could easily have discounted something important to the
process, something small that Harry did, but he didn't. An error with
the unfortunate consequence of leaving Dumbledore with no choice but
to die sometime in the near future or give up all hope of defeating
Voldemort. I'd call that a 'huge' mistake, wouldn't you?

> Jen:
> I guess my reluctance to think the soul piece is inside DD is 
> feeling undecided about DD dying throughout HBP. 

Valky:
I don't actually buy into that line of reasoning myself. I think
Dumbledore and Snape successfully halted the process of Dumbledore
dying, but only for a limited time. I agree Dumbledore wasn't
weakening throughout the year, but I do believe he might have made the
choice to die of the potion rather than forsake the fight against LV
for a few more trivial moments of life.

> Jen:
> Harry never sees flashes of anyone behind Dumbledore's 
> eyes like DD saw in Harry's eyes when Voldemort was in there. So I'm 
> still up in the air on this one.
> 

Valky:
Yes that's a good point, but in my hypothesis this would have started
happening sometime in the near future, Dumbledore died to prevent it.

Valky