Harry IS Snape!

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 141113

Lupinlore:
I agree that this would be hard to pull off with ESE!Snape, however
I don't really see why such a plotline would necessarily require a
DDM!Snape or even make such a thing particularly likely. In fact, I
would say that it makes OFH!Snape much more likely.

Valky:
I agree, and IMO all the better theories of Snapes final character arc
do lend to OFH!Snape, more than any other type. 

Lupinlore:
in general reads all sorts of unwarrented themes from one
saga into the other, as well as bringing up that hackneyed chestnut
the Hero's Journey.

Valky:
S'cuse me, Lupinlore, had to comment on this one. ;D 'hackneyed
chestnut' ? You clearly have a strong opinion on that. <g> I
personally don't find all the references to the Heroes journey, trite,
and particularly not that which can be read from Julie's post IMO. I
do personally agree with bringing traditions of the heroes journey
into the speculation here. But I think, however, that we aren't
exploring it fully enough, despite our repeated references to it. 
There are other traditions in a heroes journey beyond the loss of the
mentor and the battle within, and it does become overused when only
those two angles are explored, so if that's your meaning, then I agree
with you. :D 

Lupinlore:
A Snape who, for instance, allowed
himself to become entangled in his own webs in Chapter 2 of HBP, and
who fell from goodness because of that and his ultimate murder of
Dumbledore, is someone who could experience the redemptive power of
forgiveness. A DDM!Snape who is utterly convinced that he has been
in the right all along and who is just concerned in making the
stupid Potter boy see facts is NOT a figure of redemption.

Valky:
I agree, however, I don't for an instant think that either side will
be favoured so much in book seven. Pardon me for saying, but I think
that those who hope for Snape to be loaded good or loaded evil in a
final revelation are in for a dissappointment. Nowhere in this whole
saga have I ever seen Snapes plate piled higher on one side than the
other, and I don't think JKR is going to change tack on that now. It
is for this reason that I am sure Snape will figure strongly for
redemption. Wormtail has been weighing in evil evil insidiously evil
with almost no counterbalance whatsoever, I do see him having a
redemption, of sorts, but I don't see how it won't necessarily be
something that could end up construed as Pettigrew acting in his own
best interests again. He has so few redemptive qualities, that I think
his best chance is the fact that he's a turncoat, with maybe a vague
soft spot and fondness for his childhood larks. 
IOW when he does repay his debt he'll be most likely taken in by
Harry's likeness to young James in reminiscence of better days, *and*
he will see that Harry is getting close to a victory over Voldemort
which he can help with. It's not really a huge redemption in my eyes.

Snape OTOH, well as I said, he'll be piled to the skies on both sides
of the fence, even so much as he is proved innocent on some counts he
will be guilty guilty guilty on others. There will be enough to
warrant he needs forgiveness, and some reason for him to deserve it.
But then just a hint in the middle, that he gets a little more
forgiveness than most people would give for what he has done.


Lupinlore:
That figure would only be a prop for an insipid storyline about cleansing
oneself of hatred despite the wrongs done to you -- did I say that
would be insipid?

Valky:
LOL theres that strong language again. To be honest with you, you have
the right of that IMO. I find the whole notion of perfect Snape
entirely misread by stupid Potter, awfully insipid.
I'll go with the misreading element, I'll even go with the not half
bad Snape, but the idea that a character like Snape could be the
exception to those who are humbled by this great power of Love in
Harry, utterly insipid, yeah, that is totally the right word. Even
Dumbledore, who hardly puts a foot wrong, and probably has all the
love in the world within him, won't stand in stead of it

Lupinlore:
If the fullness of the power of forgiveness is to be realized, then
SNAPE as well as Harry must experience it as an important and
transformative moment. And in order for that to be the case, Snape
must have done something to be forgiven for -- and more to the
point, something that he himself knows, if only deep inside, that he
needs to be forgiven for. At this point in the story, I don't think
it would be a believable dynamic for that forgiveness to be about
something that happened before Harry came to Hogwarts (that reduces
Snape to a static figure again) or about classroom problems (which
avoids other issues). Rather it has to be for something that Snape
has genuinely done wrong within the scope of the story, something
that HAS separated him from the side of the good, and something for
which Harry's forgiveness has deep meaning.

Valky:
What about something happening after Snapes supposed pre-story
redemption but partially out of the scope of the story. Such as
killing James or having a direct hand in overcoming him in the battle.
Harry accuses Snape of killing James, and Snape does not deny it, but
rather goes to pieces for being called a coward over it.

The three elements of that scene can be transposed cleanly onto a two
one one battle between James, Voldie and Snape, and be something Snape
knows he needs forgiveness for. Plus it makes a twisted, bangy
reference back to the pensieve two on one and to Dumbledores trust.
Snape-lovers will hate it, I know, but I am interested in your opinion
Lupinlore, in reference to what you have said above.

Lupinlore:
I am not at all convinced that the power of love will necessarily
turn out to be the power of forgiveness, or if it does that it will
necessarily be the Harry/Snape dynamic that will come into play.
There are plenty of other candidates for something like that,
including Draco, Wormtail, and yes, even Voldemort himself. And if
the forgiveness is one-sided, well, Harry becomes a kind of saint-
like figure, if not a Christ figure forgiving the world that
crucified him. Such is the foundation of a silly and insipid and
preachy saga that will make for very good kindling.

Valky:
What I postulated above seems far too strong to work for the context
you have here, unless Harry really does come up christ-like in his
forgiveness. But do you still think you'd burn it? That's the question
on my mind. I guess because I sometimes really appreciate and enjoy
your forthrightness, regardless that I don't always agree with you.


Valky