Bullying WAS: Re: Prodigal Sons

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 141115


>>>Valky:
> > <snip>
> > So my assessment of James generally a nice guy, who deliberately   
> > and openly sets himself against things that he thinks are wrong    
> > and evil.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> So, do you think *all* of those students James and Sirius hexed 
> throughout their time at Hogwarts were somehow wrong or evil?  
> Because I got the impression that James was more showing off than 
> taking some sort of "stand against injustice" or something.

Valky:
No and Yes, I certainly don't think all of the students that got the
wrong end of this pairs wands were evil and wrong. But I do think the
comparison between the F/G and the J/S pair is telling in regard to
the kind of situations generally presiding when J/S did get mean. 
I might have overgeneralised my veiw a bit in the above post and I am
sure you've heard this from me before, what I mean to say is that I
think J/S, especially James, were really reputation conscious, and
tried to forge themselves a reputation that reflected them as
champions of their set of principles. This is in line with Snapes
accusations of strutting, and Lily's jab about ruffling hair to look
like he is fresh of his broomstick. Lily would really have gotten the
best of James in that scene by saying that, by pointing out that she
didn't care one whoot about his reputation, equally by asking "what
has he ever done to you?" She would be besting him in his own
territory. She knows what James is up to, she knows who he thinks he
is, but she ultimately disagrees. 

So what I am saying here is that the general hexing in the hallways,
most likely wouldn't have been imposed on someone minding their own
business (except for Snape whom they don't believe ever minds his own
business). In Lily's spat she accuses James of doing it because those
people are 'annoying him', James really doesn't have a rebuttal
because it has come to that with his antics and he knows it. He'd been
telling himself that they were out of line and that people were
cheering him on for putting them right, but in reality, he's been
fooling himself for too long now swept up in his own cult status.

OTOH, he does really believe in championing good principles, and so
does Sirius, that's their inner self, and it doesn't change IMO, they
just misrepresent it out hormone driven teenage self righteousness, I
think.
 
> 
> > >>Valky:
> > His groups of best friends - A Werewolf, a Blood Traitor, and a
> > virtual Squib.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Hmmm.... Again, I think you're giving James a bit too much credit 
> here.

Valky:
I utterly disagree.

Betsy:
> James didn't rush out to befriend a werewolf.  Lupin was his 
> friend and then James *discovered* he was a werewolf.  There's a 
> difference there.  Yes, it was good of James (and telling, I think) 
> that he *maintained* his friendship with Lupin, but it doesn't paint 
> a picture of James being out for the little guy, IMO.

Valky:
Yes, but Lupin *was* the little guy, *before* James found out he was a
werewolf. He'd been isolated all his life, was wary, afraid and very
alone when he came to Hogwarts, this was because he was a werewolf,
but it was also debilitating in itself. Lupin *needed* a generous soul
to befriend him, this is one reason why he continued to feel indebtted
to James and Sirius well into his adult years. I doubt his haggard,
shabby, mutilated appearances would have been very endearing to the
general population, but J/S were able to look beyond them and make a
friend, and then consummate that friendship with their refusal to
abandon him when things got worse. The best part is that J/S do this
before they get overadoring of themselves for it, it is genuinely in
them to disregard the protocol of snobbery, like Harry does when he
first meets Ron, they judge the right sort for themselves.
 

> Betsy:
> And with Sirius, sure he chose to go against family tradition and 
> become a Gryffindor, but that didn't automatically make him a blood 
> traitor.  Sirius remained a Black until he was sixteen, IIRC.  So 
> again, James wasn't choosing to befriend an oppressed outsider.

Valky:
Hmm, I think that is a matter for debate. As far as I can see, Sirius
was oppressed by his parents while he lived with them. And he was an
outsider even though he was within their walls.
He says he got tired of it at sixteen and left, this doesn't exactly
support reading it as Sirius had it good before then, does it? He also
says he was never happy in that home, being there in OOtP brought to
the surface some of his worst and most painful memories. And again
Sirius was the one of the crew, IMO, most hellbent on avenging the
oppressed and the little guy, he was the angriest of the two. 

Yeah I think Sirius might have been all but suicidal/homicidal before
he met James, and it's to James credit that he didn't fear someone
with the dark reputation of the Black family hanging over his head,
huffily brooding in the corner of the Gryffindor common room, but made
a true and lasting friendship with him instead.


> Betsy:
> As to Peter, I'm going to agree with colebiancardi here.  Nothing in 
> canon points to Peter being so magically challenged as to be 
> considered a "virtual squib". 

Valky:
In POA MacGonagall gives us the canon that refutes this statement
Betsy. Nobody thought Peter was anything of a wizard. 

Betsy:
>  For me, the most disturbing part of 
> the pensieve memory was how *comfortable* James was with Peter's 
> fawning.  It seemed that Peter worked to be James's friend, not the 
> other way around. 

Valky:
I think this is true by around the time of the SWM scene. By then
Peter has become quite accomplished I'd imagine, and he is playing
James against himself. But in the initial stages of their friendship,
I maintain Peter was definitely an outsider with lacklustre potential
in the friends department, mostly because he ws an easy target due to
his feckless wizardry, like NL. James and Sirius most likely protected
him in the beginning.


Betsy:
> So again, I don't see a pattern of choosing 
> the "outsiders".

Valky:
;D and again, I do. <g>

 
> > >>Valky:
> > I also think that James and Sirius thought they had the measure of 
> > what was good for Snape and the school in general when they were   
> > bullying Snape, but they were wrong...
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I have a hard time reconciling this with the memory. Snape wasn't 
> doing anything wrong.  He wasn't picking on a poor big-eyed first 
> year.  He wasn't torturing puppies.  He was studying for his OWL.  
> And Sirius was bored.  James decided that as a good friend he'd 
> entertain Sirius by picking on the outsider, the weird kid with bad 
> social skills and a funky homelife. 

Valky:
Yes I agree that this reads right. But again it reads all wrong
outside the pensieve so how can it be the right of the story?

Inside the pensieve, Snape is all those things, but all other canon
says there is much much more to this story and Snape is not all he
might seem there in that scene. I cannot step outside the pensieve
scene without questioning the opinion that they were picking on an
outsider because of his bad social skills and funky homelife. And I
wonder how anyone else can.

If James was picking on Snape because of his looks and isolation, then
what meaning does "Snape was neck deep in Dark Arts and James always
hated the Dark Arts" have, except to argue point blank that Sirius and
Lupin are a pair of liars.

If Snape was really a lonely boy who minds his own business, then how
on earth did he end up walking into the Shrieking Shack, if Sirius
didn't hogtie him and drag him down there? Can't you see the
contradiction, or do we really think Sirius is ESE?


Betsy:
> It's very hard for me to 
> see "out for social justice"!James in this memory.  Even *James* 
> can't point him out.  "Because he exists" doesn't quite cut it as a 
> rallying cry for me.

Valky:
Really, <g> lol Thats exactly what it seems to be, to me.


> 
> > >>Valky:
> > <snip of Snape stuff>
> > ...Lily's chewing out of James in the Pensieve should be (and     
> > probably was) a lesson to James.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Again, I don't see James "learning a lesson" here.  Actually, once 
> Lily stormed off (to get a professor, maybe?) James turns his attack 
> *up* a notch.  He threatens to strip Snape in front of a mixed 
> group.  Whether it happens or not, James seemed pretty serious in 
> his intent. 


Valky:
Yes that was the kneejerk reaction to being confronted with his ugly
truth. But I don't think it proves James wasn't capable of reliving it
in his mind afterwards and learning from it soon enough after.


Betsy:
> No, I think James's "lesson" comes when he realizes his 
> best friend is about to commit murder.  It's certainly a good thing 
> that James was unwilling to take his vendetta with Snape that far, 
> but I do think it's important to recognize how seriously James had 
> it in for Snape beforehand.

Valky:
I agree that this is most likely the biggest lesson of the two for
James. However, returning to the original context of my statement
about this, I don't think it would do Snape any harm to get chewed out
for his horribleness, it might not be his biggest lesson, but
regardless of what his intent is, just like James, he should have the
truth thrown in his face for him.



> 
> > >>Valky:
> > {Snape} chooses what is    
> > easy, to express those instincts, when he spies on the Marauders, 
> > trying to take control of what happens in their lives.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I agree with you somewhat here.  I'm not sure I'd label spying on 
> the Marauders as "easy", though.  I figure Snape generally enjoyed 
> Hogwarts except for the Marauders and, in an attempt to take control 
> of the situation, decided to find the Marauders in some sort of 
> wrong-doing and get them expelled, thereby eliminating the problem.
> Going up against a gang that had the Map and an invisibility cloak 
> in its arsenal must have been frustrating, however.  

Valky:
I agree with you about that, but I meant 'easy' in the sense that its
easier to express yourself with only your personal agenda and self
righteousness to serve, the hard choice is to serve your sense of
righteousness without getting any personal gain, or while sacrificing
some personal agenda.