Bullying WAS: Re: Prodigal Sons

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 141124


> > >>Valky:
> > No and Yes, I certainly don't think all of the students that got 
> > the wrong end of this pairs wands were evil and wrong. But I do  
> > think the comparison between the F/G and the J/S pair is telling     
> > in regard to the kind of situations generally presiding when J/S  
> > did get mean.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Ooh, you picked a wrong analogy for me there Valky <g>. Since I'm 
> kind of hoping one of the twins turns out to be evil as an 
> explination of their general creepiness they're not a really good 
> example of doing it for the principle.  (The twins generally do 
> what's best for the twins, IMO.)  Which is why *I* think the 
> comparison made between James and Sirius and the twins is telling in 
> an entirely different way. <g>

Valky:
On the contrary, I think F/G are the perfect example of starting with
the principle and getting wildy carried away with themselves.

What do they think of Percy? Really. Yeah, they are darn awful to him,
and won't let him get to his feet before they knock him down again,
exactly like J/S in the pensieve, but they absolutely started with
principle. Percy has the wind far up in him, he shows that he has
outright disrespect and shame for the parents that sacrificed much to
give him the best chance in life, he boasts, he looks down on people
and he is superficial and shallow to the bone long long time. Yes they
have a principle, no they don't have the right to be so cruel. They
are the perfect example IMO.

Then what about Montague, takes cheap shots in Quidditch, hangs
incessantly on the Weasley's family, is all round nasty. Do the Twins
have the right to almost kill him, NO! But did Montague stamp on their
principles? Yes, yes, yes.

Then Umbridge, foul woman, should they have torn her inquisition
apart, Oh yes!, and they even announced that they were acting on
principle before they did it. How can that be the wrong example? Sure
they have done some downright savage things, but to say that they
didn't think that person was out of line before starting, or to say
that they cared for nothing but themselves, is just not canon IMO. 



> 
> > >>Valky: 
> > <snip>
> > OTOH, he does really believe in championing good principles, and 
> > so does Sirius, that's their inner self, and it doesn't change    
> > IMO, they just misrepresent it out hormone driven teenage self   
      
> > righteousness, I think.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Is there any canon on this? I know Lupin says (or is it Sirius)  
> that James hated the Dark Arts (which...okay.  A bit weird for an 
> eleven year old, IMO, but has the war started or something?) 

Valky:
Yes, the war has started, and people are dying and being tortured by
Dark Arts enthusiasts in their world. This is a perfect place to look
for political eleven year olds, just ask around post the terrorism in
the world today. Besides, we do have absolute canon of Sirius having a
political mind at the age of eleven, he grew up in a Dark Arts family
and had already decided that there was no good in what they did or
stood for, all his high talk about James definitely points to a
comparison of souls between Sirius family to his left and James to his
right.


Betsy:
> but that James 
> thinks he can tell if someone is worthy of punishment or not is a 
> bit... well, it doesn't impress.  Frankly I think it's something he 
> needed to get over. 

Valky:
James could see Dark for what it was, a lot of the time, like his son
I'm sure. But, yes, he was too young to be thinking he knew all the
answers, and he of course will have been frequently wrong.  As for
dishing out punishment, I don't mean to imply that they went brazenly
with the plan to sort out the chaff with a heavy hand, that sort of
thing most likely came of itself through the course of years, after
all, as big, as they are, bullies, Fred and George get their share of
being provoked into it, and so, likely, will have J/S.


Betsy:
> Sirius deciding that someone was worthy of death 
> gave James a much needed wakeup call, I think.  

Valky:
Oh I disagree that Sirius thought that Snape was worthy of death and
thus planned the prank. Snape thinks this, but we know darn well that
Dumbledore disagrees to a point. That point has *got* to be that
Sirius thought otherwise. Since that's exactly what Snape is getting
at when Dumbledore gently refuses to encourage it. 

OTOH I think it's pretty obvious what Sirius intended by sending Snape
to the werewolf, and pretty um stubborn (beg pardon) not to
acknowledge it. "It's the risk that made it fun." Risk was not deadly
to 'I am Mr Invincible' Sirius Black, and how often does Snape call
James and Sirius cowards for fighting him two on one. If Snape was so
tough, and they were cowards, how come facing a werewolf was certain
death for Snape and good fun for Sirius. They are at cross purposes
with each others bravado, it's got nothing at all to do with murder in
the slightest.



Betsy:
> (I don't care *how* 
> old you are.  Setting yourself up as the decider of right or wrong 
> is, well, wrong, IMO.  Even Dumbledore hesitates.)

Valky:
Hmm, now I think that we are at cross purposes. I see what you're
saying, but I disagree that what I say means J/S are setting
themselves up as decider. What I am saying is that they set themselves
up to be seen as, and have a reputation of people who defend what is
right. I don't mean that they intended to dictate or preach to the
masses,  what is good and what is evil (except maybe just a little of
that in Sirius). I mean that they, James especially, first thought it
was admirable to defend the weak and show good magic to be powerful
and strong against dark, but then got to the point where they were
thinking how good it was to be admired, and got carried away showing
off their tricks. 

> 
> > >>Valky:
> > <snip>
> > I doubt his haggard, shabby, mutilated appearances would have been 
> > very endearing to the general population...
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> First, Lupin is not, and never was, mutilated.  That's movie 
> contamination.  Canon Lupin is never described as having a single 
> scar (except for his bite?).

Valky:
No it's not. In POA Lupin tells Harry that he would bite and scratch
himself when he was alone in the shack, before the Marauders managed
to become animagii and keep him company.


Betsy:
> Second, we don't know that Lupin's parents were as poor as Lupin is 
> now.  *They* weren't werewolves so they may have been able to afford 
> decent clothes for their son.  (Lupin's not described as "shabby" in 
> the pensieve memory that I could find.  He looked a bit peaky, 
> that's all.)  

Valky:
I'll grant you that. But I do doubt that they are such a well to do
family, I am sure Lupin is painted as someone from a pretty ordinary
background.

Betsy:
> And third, Lupin *does* get chosen as a prefect.  So even if 
> the Marauders weren't the only Gryffindor boys of their year, Lupin 
> must have stood out, in a good way, from the rest of the boys. 

Valky:
That really doesn't speak to his first year in Hogwarts though, it
speaks to what kind of person he was always capable of being, it
speaks to another cheer for the power of J/S friendship in making
Lupins school life a happier memory, but there's no certainty, and
almost no chance, that he could have ended up a stand out popular boy
without good friends coming to him beforehand.

Betsy: 
> *Shy* I'd buy, but not oppressed.

Valky:
A child werewolf, not oppressed? Surely you jest Betsy. ;D 
Perhaps, you mean to refer to the fact that noone in Hogwarts knew
except a few teachers, which is fair. But Werewolves *are* oppressed,
Lupin was required to hide himself from other students once a month
and he knew darn well how everyone felt about werewolves wether they
knew he was one or not, one slip and he's cactus in the eyes of the
WW. He did live under the oppression, if only in secret, all
Dumbledore did for him couldn't take away the prejudice of the world
from his emotional burden. He came to Hogwarts this way, is what I
mean, bearing the the weight of years of being an outcast, I'm sure he
was quite the charmer with everyone, not. <g>


> Betsy:
> I *do* think it speaks well of James that he *remained* Lupin's 
> friend once he found out about Lupin's "furry little problem", but 
> merely making friends with Lupin in the first place doesn't impress 
> me tons. 

Valky:
Well it's not supposed to impress 'tons'. <g> The point is that James
is a pureblood, wealthy sports champ from a respected line of Wizards,
he was *easily* well in with people that could do things for him, but
he chose *friends*, whatever they had bulging out of their closets.
The ones who most people will have steered well clear of - The angry
outcast of a Dark Wizard family, the obvious talentless bully magnet,
and the sad weak looking boy who keeps turning up to class with
mysterious injuries. Sure it's not hugely impressive, but it
contradicts point blank all the snob evidence in the pensieve, and
should make us question what he *really* thinks of Snape, IMO.

> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, I fully buy that Sirius and his mother went at it hammer and 
> tongs from the moment Sirius learned to talk <g>. And I'm sure James 
> picked up on the fact that Sirius was *not* the favored son.  (Which 
> if James really *was* against the Dark Arts so fundamentally would 
> only be a good thing in his eyes.) But I'm incredibly leery of an 
> eleven year old making a political choice. (It's why I can't except 
> a sweeping condemnation of Slytherin house.)  I think the politics 
> came later (around the time Sirius turned sixteen).


Valky:
I am also unable to accept the sweeping condemnation of Slytherin
House, but isn't Harry a little political about that in itself at age
eleven. Sure, he's not a genius of philosophy, but he really sincerely
doesn't want to go bad, and based on what he knows he forms the
opinion thats its separated down this line bewteen Slytherin and the
rest of Hogwarts. 

Harry was fundamentally against the Dark Arts at eleven, and he is
told so often how *like his father* he is. IMO Sirius is not a liar
(he may have bad traits but lying is not one of them) James always
hated Dark Arts, Sirius grew up in a Dark Arts home he hated. And
James and Sirius took to each other like birds of a feather. All in
all, I find it hard to believe how much I need to debate this
virtually given knowledge of who J/S are. <g>



> Betsy:
> But you saw Sirius in the pensieve.  Again, I find it hard to 
> believe that the eldest son of the House of Black didn't know how to 
> give good face.  I doubt Sirius brooded much.  

Valky:
Fair enough, the brooding in the corner was really just a speculative
suggestion. OTOH Sirius shows how painful Grimmauld Place is for him,
I am quite certain that just a day into Hogwarts and out of there he'd
be hard pressed to give off a welcoming aura, even if he could give
good face. 


> 
> > >>Betsy Hp: 
> > > As to Peter, I'm going to agree with colebiancardi here.  
> > > Nothing in canon points to Peter being so magically challenged 
> > > as to be considered a "virtual squib". 
> 
> > >>Valky:
> > In POA MacGonagall gives us the canon that refutes this statement
> > Betsy. Nobody thought Peter was anything of a wizard. 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> *Hem hem.  Pulls out hardback scholastic PoA* <g>
> 
> Professor McGonagall says this about Peter:
> 
> "Never quite in their league, talent-wise." (p.207)
> 
> She's comparing him to Sirius and James of whom she said earlier:
> 
> "Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact..." 
> (p.204)
> 
> So Peter is not quite in the league of two students Professor 
> McGonagall classifies as "exceptionally bright".  That's a long, 
> long, *long*, way from "near squib".  Again, it's *Harry* who links 
> Peter with Neville (clever JKR encouraging us to think Peter's a 
> nothing wizard).  But the professor who knew him as a student did no 
> such thing.  At least, not that I can see. 

Valky:
Ok my mistake, that must not be the quote I am looking for. OTOH
MacGonagall is speaking of the dead as far as she's concerned, she
could just be acting polite.

Are you sure that's all that is said about Peter's ability in that
particular scene? Maybe it was Hagrid or Flitwick who reminisced how
awful Sirius was for killing someone who they thought could never
defend himself.

In any case, no matter how much we debate the finer points of 'virtual
squib', Sirius calls Peter weak, talentless, and needing protection,
and its a huge surprise to everyone that he wasn't easily offed by
Sirius Black, not least of all Sirius himself, in the pensieve he has
an obviously repulsive persona, so couple that with not being really
good at wizardry and you get the picture that I think is Peter in his
first year at Hogwarts, really quite pathetic and helpless, I'd say.
 
 

>  
> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > For me, the most disturbing part of the pensieve memory was how 
> > > *comfortable* James was with Peter's fawning.  It seemed that    
> > > Peter worked to be James's friend, not the other way around. 
> 
> > >>Valky:
> > I think this is true by around the time of the SWM scene. By then
> > Peter has become quite accomplished I'd imagine, and he is playing
> > James against himself.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Interesting.  So you're thinking Peter was already turning towards 
> the Death Eaters at this time?

Valky:
Ooh good of you to ask Betsy.. Yes, I do think Peter showed his first
signs of being a little something else by this time. But he didn't let
anyone know that he was capable, why leave the safety of J/S
protection while its still useful to him? LIke Ron's cosy pocket was a
good hiding place for 12 years, so do I think the protection of J/S
was also as far back as school years. 

It lights up a whole new path of speculation too <g>. Since Dumbledore
was studying his Bertha Jorkins memory *after* it was confirmed that
Peter had run to Voldemort, and he *really* wanted to know what
forgetful Bertha Jorkins thought she'd find behind shed when she got
jinxed. It adds up that Dumbledore was looking at a memory that was
related to the only person that he *knew* was helping LV, Peter.

So here I think is the well hid *first* of Peters evil deeds, what it
is I can't really figure out, because I haven't got a chance to read
GOf yet, but my best guess is that it has to do with finding out what
resources Peter has shared with Voldie since his ressurection, perhaps
his hiding spot (Peter's really good at those).

Valky
Now so tired she can't finish answering the whole post, but will come
back to it later.