Bullying continued... WAS: Re: Prodigal Sons

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 141129

> > >>Valky:
> > But in the initial stages of their friendship, I maintain Peter  
> > was definitely an outsider with lacklustre potential in the    
> > friends department, mostly because he ws an easy target due to his 
> > feckless wizardry, like NL. James and Sirius most likely protected    
> > him in the beginning.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Huh.  See, that's why I think Peter *turned* to James and Sirius.  
> Doesn't Sirius sort of imply that Peter scurried for the strongest 
> guy in the playground?  It just reads to me that *Peter* sought out 
> James.

Valky:
I think that will have been too obvious for sneaky rat Peter, to be
honest, and I don't know why you'd think he wouldn't get shunted
around by other bullies on his way to becoming one of the Marauders.
Do you think he got his reputation as a weakling by managing himself
just fine without them? 

Peter may have *chosen* J/S from afar and then manipulated himself
into a position where he could be picked up on their trail and reside
comfortably in their protection, but that only goes even more strongly
*to* soft touch social justice James, doesn't it <g>

Then again I can see it your way, too. Sirius does imply that Peter
always sniffed out stronger wizards than himself to protect him, which
could mean he stayed under the protection of other people he was able
to suck up to over time before he became their friend, however, I
don't think we should exaggerate this angle /too/ much or else how are
we to believe that James, Sirius and Lily all could think he was
harmless and trustworthy.




> Betsy Hp:
> Ah, here's where we have our breakdown.  For me it reads right 
> *outside* the pensieve as well.  From the language of the Map,

Valky:
How does the language of the map prove that Snape is exactly what he
seems in the Pensieve?
Sure it proves that the Marauders had smart mouths where Severus Snape
was concerned, and it agrees and even foreshadows Snape being  their
favourite target. But what does it do for Snapes presence in the
pensieve? 


Betsy:

> to the way Sirius treats an unconscious Snape, 

Valky:
hehe. Yeah, it fits. But hey, Snape *was* being an obtuse b**t**rd in
the scenes before, so it goes to prove more of what I say too. I mean
if someone salivated over watching you and your best friend left in
the world die (well worse than die, actually) for a crime you didn't
commit..? Would you really call it bullying when you cheerfully let
him bump into things on the way out?


Betsy:
> to what Lily says about  James,

Valky:
But that's *in* the pensieve.

Betsy:
> to what Sirius and Lupin say about their school-days, 

Valky:
They said J/S got carried way with themselves and agreed they were out
of line. They didn't say that they thought Snape was just some greasy
ugly kid who couldn't make friends, they literally gave only one
excuse which was that Snape was into Dark Arts and James hated Dark
Arts. It doesn't agree with the Pensieve read that you gave :
"James decided that as a good friend he'd entertain Sirius by picking
on the outsider, the weird kid with bad social skills and a funky
homelife.'
There's no mention of his homelife, social skills, or him being a
weird outsider in what Lupin and Sirius tell Harry, that read exists
*in* the Pensieve SWM scene, which shows only *one* day in their lives.   

Betsy:
> to what Harry reads in those old detention cards it seems fairly 
> clear that James led his own little gang of "trouble makers", and  
> that Snape was their most favoritist victim.

Valky:
Ahh yes, what Snape would have us believe. But then Harry himself
thinks it stupid as he goes through card after card of "petty misdeeds". 

You know, I really need to get this straight though, now. Do you
*really* believe that the SWM scene absolutely proves beyond a shadow
of a doubt that from the very start, four years prior to that day,
James and Sirius were just the kind of people that chose some helpless
victim for no reason but that he was ugly, and threw hexes at him for
fun? Honestly?


> 
> > >>Valky: 
> > Inside the pensieve, Snape is all those things, but all other 
> > canon says there is much much more to this story and Snape is not 
> > all he might seem there in that scene. I cannot step outside the 
> > pensieve scene without questioning the opinion that they were 
> > picking on an outsider because of his bad social skills and funky 
> > homelife. And I wonder how anyone else can.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I can, because for all the talk of Snape having a "Slytherin gang" 
> we don't really see him with a group of friends.  The memories Harry 
> dragged up point to a lonely little boy from a not so great home.  
> The very fact that a child arrived at Hogwarts with a strange 
> knowledge of Dark Arts speaks to a not so great homelife, IMO.  If 
> an eleven year old knows about, oh smoking or drugging or porn or 
> something I generally suspect he learned it at home.

Valky:
But that's not a great argument in my book, Sirius has even more
reason to hold himself above Snape then doesn't he? Sirius had no good
homelife to speak of and yet it's impossible to imagine he could have
thought of someone with an interest in furthering the evils of the
world that have made him suffer, as anything but ugly? 

 
> > >>Valky:  
> > If James was picking on Snape because of his looks and isolation,  
> > then what meaning does "Snape was neck deep in Dark Arts and James 
> > always hated the Dark Arts" have, except to argue point blank that 
> > Sirius and Lupin are a pair of liars.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> They aren't liars.  I'm sure Snape did know a few curses. 


Valky:
Know curses? He was inventing them O_o



Betsy:
> But I'm also pretty 
> confident that Snape (who seems to be fairly poor in the pensieve 
> memory) also had shabby clothes and second hand books and probably a 
> gigantic chip on his shoulder.  For all we know James made a well 
> meant joke and Snape replied with out of place anger and maybe a 
> curse.

Valky:
'shrug' I dunno. Could have been. But I don't doubt that could have
been remedied in the long run if there wasn't the deeper difference
between them of being one being opposed to and and one being pro Dark
Magic.

> Betsy:
> What I *do* have a hard time buying is that sweet St. James *never* 
> did a thing wrong to Snape.  He was just trying to save him from his 
> sinful ways.  Or that Snape was considered too far gone by James and 
> James was merely trying to save the innocents Snape preyed on.  That 
> the two boys hated each other on sight I can believe. 

Valky:
Ok, but I am sure I don't sell that idea anyway. I say St James *did*
do wrong to Snape HUGE wrong, because he was totally full of himself
in the pensieve, and I do say that at the very least James gave a darn
about Snapes sinful ways. 

I definitely never say (or intend to imply, at least) that James
thought Snape was too far gone, or that James was /merely/ trying to
protect the innocents that Snape (may or may not have) intended
preying on.

I definitely do say that James and Sirius based their hatred of Snape
mostly on his liking for the magic that was destroying the WW they
lived in, and to some degree they, James especially, liked to be seen
fighting known Dark Magic to gain the reputation that James wanted as
a defender of innocents, and finally I do say for sure that although
J/S weren't flat out protecting innocent prey in the schoolground,
that they believed, and were justified in believing, that Snape was a
dangerous person who could do much harm, and already did attempt on
numerous occasions to do harm to them. And I accuse Snape of *being* a
Snivellus because he never got chastised for doing it, beyond what
Sirius did in revenge (which I suppose was bad enough).




Betsy:
>  I just think 
> they're probably equally calpable in their enmity. 

Valky:
So do I.


> 
> > >>Valky:
> > I don't think it would do Snape any harm to get chewed 
> > out for his horribleness, 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I think Snape *has* had this happen.  <snip.>

Valky:
Well yeah and no, I think a lot of readers, including me, haven't seen
it to their satisfaction in Snapes pre story redemption. We've only
heard second hand, and speculated on it. 
And besides nothing that he has done or learned before the story makes
the slightest point to him about scaring Neville senseless or never
allowing Hermione the slightest shred of dignity for anything, or
humiliating and provoking Hary about the celebrity status he never
asked for and didn't want. he should hear someone tell him like Lily
would have told him, that this is what he is, no matter what he thinks
he's doing, or thinks he's right about.

Valky