Destroying the horcruxes (The cave potion and soul pieces )

[Deb]

No: HPFGUIDX 141164

 
> Jen: (snip) Dumbledore attributed his blackened hand to 
a 'terrible curse' upon 
> the ring, and the later destruction of the horcrux back at 
Hogwarts 
> seemed to have no particular ill effect on Dumbledore. Harry just 
> noticed the ring sitting on the table with a crack in it, after 
the 
> withered hand incident. 
> 
> Now, what the 'terrible curse' was we have to imagine, but it must 
> have been as destructive as the potion/water. So Snape saved 
> Dumbledore from the terrible curse, but was unable to get to him 
> quickly enough after the potion. I think the moment Dumbledore 
chose 
> to freeze Harry, losing his wand, was the point of no return for 
> him. 

Deb here:
  The ring was also probably protected by Slytherin - perhaps to 
kill the hand of who ever was not related to him who dared to put 
the ring on - or perhaps even touch it. While LV may have added a 
curse or two of his own, we can't assume it was without magical 
power when he acquired it. And I've wondered what would happen if an 
object that was already magically enhanced had other spells added on 
top? I suppose it depends on what the original spell was about and 
what was added to it...    
 
(snip)
> Jen: JKR could make a potion do anything she wants it to do! I was 
> imagining somehow Voldemort could place an essence of himself in 
the 
> potion, that it wasn't the horcrux doing the possessing since 
there 
> wasn't even a real horcrux in the bowl, rather as the ring had a 
> curse upon it, the potion was the curse of possession protecting 
the 
> supposed horcrux. Like you said though, can that happen without a 
> soul? "Only if he poured some soul in the bowl" said Dr. Suess 
<g>. 
> Oh well, if the potion doesn't possess (although I'm still rather 
> attached to the idea) there's still time to come up with new ideas!

>Lipa:
> > This is fairly similar to what I have been thinking.
> > Dumbledore was asking to be killed, quickly.
> > My guess is that the curse from the ring and/or the
> > potion/water combination from the cave were finishing him
> > in a horrible way, dehumanizing him (Inferi, Dementors, 
> > Ghosts, ... come to mind)
> > and only timely death could save him from destiny
> > which he considered worse than death.
 
Deb here:
  I agree Lipa and Jen that the potion was intended to finish off 
who ever drank it... and probably also bring that person under LV's 
control. Can you imagine how demoralized the WW would be if DD 
became LV's minion? I would guess that DD and the OOP had made plans 
for just this possibility. DD, IMO, never underestimated LV... and 
he would have made plans to make sure LV could never use him in this 
manner.... even if it meant binding every OOP member to a UV to 
insure if one was present, he or she would kill DD (or any OOP 
member who became "infected" in this manner) immediately. I think 
that for DD and the OOP becoming an Inferi or some other abomination 
under LV's control would come under the banner of "a fate worse than 
death"... DD to LV (paraphrase) "we both know there are ways to 
destroy a man without killing him"    
 
> 
> You know, it suddenly struck me how *adventurous* (rash?) 
Dumbledore 
> was in HBP, attempting to get past the ring protections alone and 
> paying dearly for it, then drinking a potion he doesn't know the 
> effects of. Guess he really does trust Severus Snape! At least he 
> expects Snape will always be around to put the pieces back 
together. 
> I'm almost convinced that was what the fight in the forest was 
> about, Dumbeldore becoming slightly obsessed with the horcrux hunt 
& 
> Snape not wanting to continue to patch him up. It's one of several 
> possibilties, anyway.

 Deb again:
   Rather like Harry and the Sectumsempra curse... trying something 
without knowing what it will do... bravery or stupidity? Though DD 
does try to get past the block using every means of magic he can 
think of before drinking it. And I suspect he had at least some idea 
of what it might do to him.... DD was after all 150 years old and 
steeped in knowledge of many aspects of magic. While he was not a 
potions master ala Snape.. he must have gained a fairly broad 
understanding of potions and their effects over his life time.    
 I think the fight in the forest, though,  had broader meanings than 
just Snape being tired of patching up DD. IMO Snape was tired of all 
the roles he was playing... double agent, spin doctor, teacher, 
antagonist to Harry and the Griffindors, Potion Master and Healer to 
everyone, recluse, object of hatred and ridicule, having to hide 
behind his Occulmency shield, brave knight or evildoer or .... No 
matter how you view Snape - ESE!, ESG!, OFH! - he must be exhausted 
after doing all this nonstop for 6 years. Even in his retreat at 
Spinner's End he has to be babysitter or second in command or what 
ever he is to Wormtail... not much of a vacation if you ask me.    
 
>Jen: About the potion/water. I like the idea Voldemort formed the 
potion 
> to be an information device and the water to be the actual death 
> agent. This would be a very sinister thing to do on Voldemort's 
> part, using the potion to find out who was penetrating his 
defenses 
> and why, then forcing the person to drink the actual quick-acting 
> poison. It's overkill, but then Lord Voldemort does like his 
drama! 
> That might explain why Dumbledore was dying so slowly since Harry 
> only dribbled a bit on his lips and he didn't swallow it.
> 
> I'm not sure the water would turn someone into an Inferi b/c we 
have 
> a mechanism for how that happens. And the ghosts, we know what 
> causes a person to become a ghost as well. I *guess* we have an 
> origin for the Dementors, seeing as they breed? If they can be 
> created though, I'd expect it was the potion since Dumbledore's 
> words might be interpreted as an extreme dementor experience--he 
> certainly seemed very frightened and appeared unable to use magic 
to 
> ward off whatever was happening.
> 
  Deb again: 
 IMO the potion starts a process and the water seals it. DD does not 
get a full "dose" of the water as Harry just splashes it on his 
face. However before Harry did that it appeared that DD was dying or 
already dead - at one point he had stopped breathing and 
Harry's "Rennervate" brings DD around again. But when Harry fails to 
conjure up some water DD again seems to grow close to death "... but 
he did not think that Dumbledore could hear him; he had rolled onto 
his side and was drawing great, rattling breaths that sounded 
agonizing". (Agonal breathing is an indication of cardiac arrest and 
may sound to an observer like the person is wheezing, groaning or 
gasping) (HBP Scholastic edition p. 574 parenthese added). When DD 
is revived he can do magic... he conjures up fire to keep the Inferi 
away from Harry and himself... but that effort wears him out further 
and Harry has to help him all the way back to Hogsmead. One the 
tower DD again casts a spell and petrifies Harry.  DD also tells 
Draco "Well, I certainly did have a drink... and I came back... 
after a fashion," mumbled Dumbledore. (p. 590) Wonder if DD only 
meant he came back to Hogwarts... or did he mean he came back from 
the dead? 

 Deb (djklaugh) who thinks what DD was experiencing while drinking 
the potion was Snape's memory that he had relived for DD (much as DD 
in GOF makes Harry relive what happened in the graveyard when LV 
returned) and thus it became part of DD's memories...and is the 
basis of why DD trusts Snape. I can well believe that for DD the 
very worst thing he can remember -and what causes him the most 
personal pain for having been unable to prevent it- is someone 
else's agony, remorse, and helplessness in the face of a monsterous 
evil.