Trial of Severus Snape /Harry IS Snape./A cold equation (LONG)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 141411

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at y...> 
wrote:
>
> > Pippin:
> > Seems to me we need to get the variables nailed down here, because
> > there is a vast opportunity to play fast and loose.
> > To wit, Snape was an idiot to take the vow, except that some are 
> > arguing that there must have been a way to outwit it, in which 
> case, 
> > he wouldn't have been an idiot to take it. ( And if he wanted to 
> kill 
> > Dumbledore anyway, why should he have been twitchy about it?)
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Erm... You are not referring to me arguing that UV can be outwitted, 
> I hope? :-) Because I only argued that we don't know the mechanics 
> of how fast the UV magic kicks in, basically how soon it will 
> recognise that Snape indeed does not want to finish Dumbledore off 
> while pretending doing something else.


Pippin:
If he sends a patronus it will be visible to the DE's, which would be
kind of a giveaway, don't you think? What will they think he's doing,
ordering out for pizza? <g> The patronus does not move at the speed 
of light -- it will have to travel down the tower, tell the Order how to 
get through the barrier, and then they will still have to fight their way past 
the DE's downstairs who are trying to stop them, leave Ginny and Neville 
undefended and climb up the tower.

In all this time, the vow is too stupid to realize it's been broken?

> Pippin: 
> > Consider also that if he refused to take it, Bella and Narcissa 
> would have had to kill him  lest he reveal their treachery to his master.
 Surely it was more important to survive and warn Dumbledore that
there was a plot than to die in a useless gesture of loyalty?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Why is that? Narcissa is not betraying Voldemort,

Pippin:
"had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been
guilty of great treachery to the Dark Lord." --HBP ch2
Snape's willingness to take the vow is Bella's and Narcissa's only
proof that he isn't  stringing them along. Without it, they
dare not leave him alive. 

Alla:
Would you argue then that Bella should kill  Narcissa first and 
foremost, since she does not want her to tell   the story in the first 
place?

Pippin:
But that would not have provided Bella with what she wanted
most -- proof that Snape was a traitor. Narcissa was the bait.
It's canon that Narcissa says that Voldemort had ordered her to
speak to no one. Bella would gladly sacrifice both her sister and 
Snape to win her way back into the Dark Lord's favor with proof 
of Snape's treachery. 

If Snape had stopped Narcissa from talking then
he would not have learned that the plan involved Draco. Granted
this information didn't do Dumbledore much good since no one
figured out that Draco was going to smuggle Death Eaters
into the castle, but that is hardly Snape's fault.


> Alla:
> 
> Yes, absolutely. This is what I think as well. I don't think that it 
> is a given that the potion was deadly or at least without antidote. 
> And it is a GREAT point about bezoar. :-) I guess Harry just did not 
> realise that potion was THAT bad in the first place. I also wonder 
> why Snape did not bring some bezoar with him, but that brings me to 
> point made by Eggplant

Pippin:
Surely Voldemort knows all about bezoars, and wouldn't use a poison
that could be cured by one? The poison could even have been worse than
death in Dumbledore's eyes -- what if it had unicorn blood in it?


> 
> Alla:
> 
> I completely agree with Eggplant. Snape makes a specific point to 
> say during Occlumency lessons that Legilimency is NOT just a mind 
> reading, something more complicated. You can see memories, emotions, 
<snip>
> I don't remember anything in canon pointing out that you can 
> converse telepathically using Legilimency.

Pippin:
This has become conventional wisdom apparently, but it's flat wrong.
Harry saw and heard complete dialogues via legilimency, real time, on at 
least  four occasions:  twice between  Wormtail and Voldemort, once 
between Voldemort and Rookwood, and lastly an entirely invented conversation 
between Voldemort and Sirius that Voldemort was able to consciously 
and puposefully convey to Harry's mind. Dumbledore knew about all that by 
the end of OOP-- do you think he'd be unable to pull off the same trick 
once he knew it was possible?

Snape, of course, need only be good enough at legilimency to receive the
message-- he does not have to be able to send one by the same means.


Pippin