Dumbledore's pleading - Forgive and Forget, or Not

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 141462

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" <R.Vink2 at c...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nicolau C. Saldanha" 
> <nicolau at m...> wrote:
> >
> > Hickengruendler wrote:
> > > I simply cannot see Dumbledore begging for his life.

> > Eggplant:
> > > I don't know, I think Dumbledore wanted to live. But if I had to 
> > > guess I'd say he was pleading with Snape not to betray him ...

> Nicolau:
> > IMO neither "DD was pleading for his life" nor "DD was
> > asking Snape to kill him with AK" are satisfactory. I also find 
> > your theory less than satisfactory: ...

 
> Renee <delurking for a moment>:
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> The explanation would be, that DD willingly sacrifices himself. 
> ...edited...
> 
> So, what DD requests from Snape is to become an "accomplice" to 
> self-sacrifice. ...edited...
> 
> This explanation doesn't require an act of Legilimency .... It 
> doesn't involve euthanasia, because DD *chooses* to die for others, 
> ... It doesn't require the events on the Tower to have been planned 
> in advance by DD; ...
> 
> What the theory does require is, that Snape told DD about the UV 
> shortly after making it, and that DD reached the correct conclusion 
> regarding what it was Draco had been told to do - ... This in its
> turn explains why he gave Snape the DADA job, ... In short, it 
> requires a single piece ofspeculation, makes a number of other 
> speculations superfluous and answers several questions.
> 
> Does it absolve Snape? Not entirely. Saving Draco and himself by 
> killing DD remains the lesser of two evils. It is better than if DD, 
> Draco and Snape all end up dead (I don't for a moment believe that 
> Snape had the time to take out the DEs and Greyback one by one, ...)
> But Snape remains a killer, whether he AKs DD or blasts him 
> over the parapet. He's Dumbledore's man, and neither ESE nor OFH, 
> but that doesn't make him a good guy. 
> 
> As I see it, this is another instant of JKR's habit to have people's 
> wrong choices catch up with them. Ultimately, the personal no-win 
> situation Snape faces on the Tower is a consequence of the wrong 
> choice he made once: ...edited...
> 
> ...edited..
> 
> Renee

bboyminn:

You've made two very excellent points. First, understanding what Snape
did doesn't undo it; to understand it is not to forgive it. But, to
understand it, does allow you to show some consideration for
circumstances. In the end, no matter how you slice it and dice it,
Snape killed Dumbledore. But killing in war operates under different
rules than killing in peace time. Many times in war, great sacrifices
must be made.

Next, it's easy enough to say that Snape shouldn't have killed
Dumbledore, but unless people have a workable alternative, it's just
so much moralistic hot air. What could Snape have done? He is alone;
Dumbledore is helpless, Snape is faced with four 'batttle-mode' Death
Eaters (one of whom was extremely vicious and brutal) and Draco, and
not much room to maneuver. He could suggest that Dumbledore is already
finished and that they should just leave, but that hinges on the other
DE's accepting his accessment and abiding by it. Something I think is
very unlikely. 

The alternative is to fight them off, but he's outnumbered 4-to-1.
There is a slim chance he might win, but there is a much greater
chance that he will lose, and he and Dumbledore will be killed anyway.
What is gained by that? Even if he wins, Dumbledore is in bad shape,
so much time may have passed that Dumbledore can't be saved. In which
case Snape will have lost his position in the DE's and at Voldemort's
side, only to have Dumbledore die anyway. That's not good for anyone.

I don't think Dumbledore implied 'kill me', I think he more likely
implied 'I understand ... do what must be done'. Dumbledore
understands that winning one battle is meaningless if it leads to
losing the war, and even worse, losing the battle is even more
meaningless when it ensures that you will lose the war. 

If Snape remains in the DE's and at Voldemort's side as a spy, then
the Order has some chance. But with Snape dead or at best out of the
DE's, the Order and the Ministry are at a terrible disadvantage. 

I really don't think Dumbledore is all that concerned about the DE's
terroistic antics. I think he has one and only one objective in mind
that is the total and utter defeat of Voldemort. All his actions are
directed at that one goal, and if his death facilitates that goal,
then so be it. 

So, I don't thik Dumbledore literally asked to die, and I don't think
Dumbledore and Snape pre-conspired for Dumbledore's death. But I think
in the moment both Snape and Dumbledore knew there was only one quick,
easy, and EFFECTIVE way out of the situation. Dumbledore accepted that
he was a casualty of war, and that this battle must be lost if the war
is to be won. He accepted that Snape had to do what Snape had to do,
and futher accepted the consequences of that action. 

No one will ever forgive Snape for killing Dumbledore; casualty of war
or not, he still destroyed one of the most powerful wizard who ever
lived and one of the most well liked. But, in the end, even if they
world doesn't forgive or forget, they will understand. Snape will
certainly be punished as I'm sure he knew he would, but it is a
sacrifice that Snape is willing to make, if in the long run it leads
to the downfall of Voldemort.

I suspect some prison time for Snape, then a life of lonely exile, but
a life none the less. Snape will probably get something like 5 years
in Azkaban. But he will NOT be charged with cold-blooded murder. This
was an act of war, and while still a terrible crime, it will be
understandable given the circumstances.

Of course, that assumes Snape doesn't die before the end. In any
event, before Snape's end, I think we and Harry will understand Snape
actions even though we can never truly forgive them.

Just a thought.
Steve/bboyminn