Dumbledore's pleading

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 141477

> Carol responds to Jen:
> I like this a lot, actually, both your tower interpretation and your
> argument that flying to the tower isn't a mistake. It fits with what
> KJ (I think) said about the argument in the forest: Dumbledore 
thought
> he could make the sacrifice without Snape having to kill him and 
Snape
> thought DD took too much for granted. As I read it, Snape feared,
> rightly, that the UV and the DADA curse together would force *him* 
to
> sacrifice Dumbledore and he didn't want to have any more to do with
> that idea. But Dumbledore seems to have reminded him of a promise to
> obey, very similar to Harry's, however unwilling he was to do so.

Ceridwen:
Jen's post was very moving, and I agree too that Snape and Dumbledore 
had a history together which would leave most communication 
unnecessary.  I believe there was Legilimency between them, and 
instead of showing all sorts of pics, I would say that Dumbledore 
merely showed Snape their discussion, when Dumbledore told Snape that 
he would do it as he'd promised.  That would be all he needed.  They 
both know the content under discussion.

This would fit in as well with the look of hatred and revulsion.  
Snape was against it when Hagrid overheard the discussion in the 
forest, and he was probably against it from the moment he had to 
think it over, after he had originally agreed.  Like taking a foul-
tasting medicine, one you know you'll hate, the face comes first, 
then the taste of it.

Carol:
> Snape raises his
> wand only after Dumbledore speaks again and clearly he fills in the
> unspoken words as Harry cannot: "Severus, please. You must do this,"
> or something to that effect. 

Ceridwen:
There doesn't have to be a missing word or part of a sentence.  I 
tell my kids to do something, if they don't, sometimes, '(Kid's 
name), Please' is enough reminder.  It's only after this reminder 
that Snape raises his wand.  The rest came before.

Carol:
> Your sacrifice idea also fits with my ideas about Snape's limited
> choices (which I know you've read because you cited one of my posts 
in
> that thread, 141420). I won't repeat those ideas here, but if anone
> wants the link, it's
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/141420

Ceridwen:
It also fits with the battlefield scenario someone else posted 
earlier.  I've mentioned heroic war movies, where some poor schmo is 
stuck out in No Man's Land, injured but not killed by the enemy, his 
buddies picked off as they try to rescue him.  You can't have that.  
You can't have Order members being fought by even the most 
incompetent DEs (what was with that blond spinning top, anyway?  he 
only got his own guy and the ceiling), the second-stringers or 
whatever.  You can't have Harry Potter, The Chosen One, released from 
DD's spell and dropped into a nest of DEs.  The only thing holding 
both Harry and the DEs on that tower, is Dumbledore alive.  A 
wounded, apparently very weakened, Dumbledore, who is growing ever 
weaker and paling, and now even his voice has changed.  Either more 
will die, as in the movie battle scene, or only one more will die.

Carol: 
> BTW, did you see my post on the evidence in OoP for Snape and Harry
> communicating through Legilimency (Harry willing Snape to see images
> in his mind)? It cites zgirnius's ideas and adds to them using the
> scene from Umbridge's office in which Harry tries to get Snape to 
see
> his dream of Sirius in the MoM.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/141428
> 
> No one has responded to it (maybe it was in the wrong thread, or 
maybe
> it was too long and I put the important stuff too near the end?), 
but
> I think it does at least establish that JKR has already introduced 
the
> concept of communicating via Legilimency before HBP, and again it's
> Snape who's receiving the communicated message.

Ceridwen:
I noticed.  I'm never sure, since I come on-line a few times a day, 
if I've used up my three posts or not.  So I don't answer very many.  
I should probably keep a tally list by the computer!

It isn't clear in that scene if Harry successfully reaches Snape, or 
if his cryptic verbal message trips the switch.  The snarky way Snape 
responds makes me think he did get the message and was impatient with 
the repetition.  Harry's not cut out for Occlumency, but he's pretty 
good at letting people into his mind.  I wonder, though, if trying to 
project too hard would be like shouting so loud the words can't be 
understood?  Still, it does tend to reinforce a previous use, or at 
least the possibility, of Legilimency in sending and receiving 
messages.

Ceridwen, hoping this is number three and not number four as I don't 
feel like dragging out the iron at this time of night.