Dumbledore's pleading (longish)

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 141492

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <bob.oliver at c...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" <R.Vink2 at c...> wrote:
> >
> <SNIP> 
> 
> > 
> > So, what DD requests from Snape is to become an "accomplice" to 
> self-
> > sacrifice. DD has lost his wand and can hardly move from the 
spot, 
> > so he needs help. That is what he asks Snape when he 
> says "Severus, 
> > please...": "Severus, please help me to carry out this 
sacrifice.""
> > They have discussed this possibility before, and Snape balked at 
> the 
> > idea of having to do it. But DD won't let him of the hook, now 
> that 
> > the situation has arisen where the sacrifice is required. Snape 
> > hates it, as the look on his face makes clear, but he keeps his 
> > promise.
> > 
> 
> And herein is where this whole self-sacrifice scenario falls 
apart.  
> The idea that Snape and Dumbledore cooked up this possibility in 
> advance is thoroughly unbelievable.  I'm not saying JKR definitely 
> won't do it, but to do so would be the worst kind of far-fetched 
> conspiracy theory mumbo-jumbo.  For one thing it would amount to 
> Dumbledore asking Snape to tear his own soul, something I don't 
> think DD as he has been presented to us would ever do (and yes, I 
> think that using the AK to kill DD would amount to Snape tearing 
his 
> own soul even if it was set up in advance with DD's blessing).  It 
> requires DD to foresee the future, a situation that would make him 
> much more an expert at divination than Trelawney's famous great-
> great-grandmother. 

Renee:
It doesn't take divination, nor a cooked up scenario, just Snape and 
DD discussing a number of possible developments in advance. And as I 
wrote in another post, causing Draco's death (and more or less 
committing suicide by UV) by not killing DD will damage Snape's soul 
just as well. You can't imagine DD asking Snape to kill him; I can't 
imagine DD asking Snape to sacrifice Draco.  

If it helps, you can go with the theory (Pippin's?) that though 
Snape said the words Avada Kedavra, he used a silent spell to trhow 
DD from the Tower, and that this was the ultimate cause of DDs 
death. But actually, I believe DD is capable of thinking so far 
outside of the book that he considers an AK forgivable if it's the 
only way to prevent the great cause, vanquishing Voldemort, from 
foundering. Especially in a war situation, where peacetime laws do 
not always apply.

But if you dislike the idea of too much divination and cooking up 
plans, what do you make of DD giving the DADA position to Snape, 
while knowing it is cursed? He must at least have planned to get rid 
of his master spy, one would think. Or do you suppose DD did it 
without thinking ahead?
        
Lupinlore:

> And it would require a communication between 
> Snape and DD on the tower that would be absolutely contrived and 
> unbelievable, whether they are using Legilemency, words, hand-
> signals, mental images, coded eyebrow movements, foot-taps, 
> whistles, bird-calls, color-coded garments, decoder rings, 
snatches 
> of popular songs, manipulation of aetheric vibrations, fingernail 
> scratching, alteration of Kirlian Auras, post-hypnotic suggestion, 
> behavioral triggers encoded in mathematical variants of voice 
tone, 
> tooth clicks, nose wagging, pre-agreed word combinations, 
> astrologically encoded messages indicated by wand angles pointed 
at 
> stars, a hidden scar on Snape's forehead, a hidden scar on DD's 
> forehead, a wrinkle in time created by pre-deployment of time-
> turners, mental manipulation of the Einsteinian space-time 
> continuum, subtle references to the non-Euclidean geometry of the 
> tower stones encoded in the arc of DD's fingertips, and any other 
> form of communication, possible or impossible, magical or mundane, 
> ever invented or to be invented, ever envisioned or imagined by 
any 
> person, being, intelligence, or denizen of any planet, star, 
> dimension, world, or plane of existence in any time or space or 
> existance either within or without of the timestream as we do or 
do 
> not understand it.
> 
> 
Renee:

An impressive list! I couldn't think of any missing possibilities.
Except that all it takes is eye contact between Snape and DD to 
confirm this *is* the worst-case scenario they've discussed in 
advance. And DD said `please' because he knew Snape was reluctant 
(see the discussion overheard by Hagrid) but wanted him to make the 
choice, instead of ordering him to kill. 

Renée