Draco, the UV, and the First Time - The Overblown Vow

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 141603

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Ceridwen:
> > Snape withdrawing would have broken his vow, but Dumbledore
> > sacking him  would have been beyond Snape's influence.  Yes!
> > 
> > But I don't see that it would have negated the third and worst 
> > part of the vow.  If Draco doesn't succeed (he didn't, he 
> > couldn't in the end kill Dumbledore) then Snape would have to do 
> > it.  And if he was sacked, he could still have come in that night 
> > to finish off the deed through the Vanishing Cabinet with the 
> > other DEs.

> Pippin:
> It depends on how you figure Snape escaped dying for Draco's
> other failures. "And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco
> *will* fail" (emphasis mine) could mean that Snape is only
> obliged to intervene if he perceives Draco is *about* to fail and
> timely intervention by him will mitigate the failure. If failure
> has already happened by the time Snape finds out, he's off the hook. 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Pippin


bboyminn:

Once again I find myself starting with an apology...sorry. But I think
this whole Unbreakable Vow 'thing' is way overrated. I think unless
you construct and word the Vow with iron-clad certainty and precision,
it is pretty much worthless.

First I think we need to re-establish a frame of reference so that we
are all working from what was actually said, rather than what it has
grown to become in Fandom.

What Narcissa originally asked -
- - - HBP, Am Ed, HB, Pg - - -

[Snape] "It might be possible ... for me to help Draco."

[Narcissa] "Severus -- oh, Severus --- you  would help him? Would you
look after him, see he comes to no harm?"

[Snape] "I can try."

- - - - end quote - - - =


- - - HBP, AM Ed, HB, Pg 36 - - -

"Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to
fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes"?

"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"

"And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail..."
whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not
draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has
ordered Draco to perform?"

- - - - end quote - - - -

The first two are insignificant. 

In the first, all Snape has to do it 'watch' as Draco 'attempts'.
Neither of them is required to succeed. 

In the second, he only has to act to the 'best of his ability'; so he
doesn't have to succeed, he only has to try with in limits.

Notice Snape physical reaction to the third part of the Vow. I think
he is very confident about the first two, and the first two are
afteral what he originally agreed to, but the third is obviously
straying into territory that Snape hasn't planned on. Unfortunately he
is committed, and it will look very bad if he backs out now. 

Again, I say if your life hangs in the balance, you make sure the Vow
is worded as precisely as possible to make sure there is no
uncertainty that could come back to haunt you later. Well, actually, I
think if you are asking for a Vow, you word it with precision; if you
are making the Vow, you want it worded as loosely and vaguely as possible.

First off, the third Vow starts with a degree of vagueness. 'Should it
prove necessary... if is seems Draco will fail...". Who decides if it
'proves necessary' and who decided when it 'seems' Draco will fail?  

Then we have 'the deed'; which deed? All the deeds that Voldemort has
assigned, or can Snape pick which deed he wants to apply to the Vow?
Can the Vow even apply if Snape doesn't know 'the deed' at the time he
makes the Vow? Is it the deed that Draco volunteered for, or does and
can it apply to the deed that was forced on Draco? 

I presonally believe that Draco discovered the Vanishing Cabinet
connection and volunteed to get it working so that DE's could get into
the castle undetected. Draco was more than willing to do that. But, I
think Voldemort force upon Draco the additional task of killing
Dumbledore; something Draco never planned on and never wanted.

The first problem is that we are assuming Snape knows what the Deed is
and that he knows it in it's entirety. If Snape only knows about the
Vanishing Cabinet when he takes the Vow, is he then absolved of the
'killing Dumbledore' deed? And, most importantly, if it hinges on what
Snape knows about the Deed, if he knows nothing, is he then inturn
bound to nothing? And if he is bound to nothing, then reasonably, the
Vow means nothing. This really does beg the question, can you make an
Unknown Unbreakable Vow, can you vow to something while at the same
time having no idea what that 'something' is? 

Further, let's say that Snape is bound to Draco's final and greatest
task; although I seriously doubt it. No time frame is specified. There
is nothing in the Vow that says that the instant Draco refuses, Snape
must step forward or die. As I see it, all Snape has to do it maintain
the /intent/ to kill Dumbledore and he can postpone it indefinitely.
He can even pass up many chance to kill Dumbledore as long as he
maintain the intent to do so at some point in the future. 

As far as the on-going enforcement of the Vow. The third section is
fulfilled, and the first two only involve 'trying', he isn't required
to suceed, so I don't see the Vow as being effectively inforce any longer.

Overal, I see the whole Unbreakable Vow process riddled with
loopholes, and these specific Vows are certainly vague and uncertain.
I think fandom has made far too much of these Vows. Although, I
understand that if you accept my premise, then that doesn't really
leave us much to talk about. None the less, I see this whole
Unbreakable Vow thing as way overblown.

But then... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bboyminn