Twist JKR? (was:Re: Dumbledore's pleading...)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 141701

> Jen: 
I gave Alla an unfair answer to her question last night, 
> without using canon, so wanted to backtrack and answer her 
properly.
> 
> First of all, that was an exaggeration. No I don't really believe 
> ALL the characters have to twist to meet Snape being OFH. What I 
was 
> saying in my original post is if we take OFH at face-value, with 
no 
> added speculation (which is what I understand to the be the 
purpose 
> of the straight-forward reading), then OFH has to answer the 
> question of how he fooled both DD and LV and square it away with 
> what we know about these two characters. That means OFH doesn't 
get 
> to speculate about whether LV really believed Snape, or if it took 
> more than a sob story for Dumbledore to welcome Snape back to the 
> fold. It means you have to take at face-value that DD *did* 
welcome 
> Snape back with few questions asked and LV *did* believe Snape to 
> the point that Snape is now his 'most trusted' servant.
> 
> Now, if you do believe those things outright, then no, OFH takes 
> little twisting. I see both those as going against the 
> characterization we have so far of Dumbledore and Voldemort. 
<SNIP>
 Since I don't claim 
> to have a straight-forward reading, I'm allowed the luxury of 
> speculation ;).


Alla:

LOL, thank you for backtracking, because truthfully, I was still 
trying to figure out what the answer was. :-)

Hmmm, I also don't think that OFH!Snape excludes speculation at all, 
it is just requires less speculation, IMO only of course. :-)But 
that was aside remark.


I hope you don't mind clarifying a little bit more though. OFH!Snape 
as I understand it requires Snape to be able succesfully play both 
sides for years, yes.  I think I understand what are you saying 
about Dumbledore now ( namely why him believing Snape 
unconditionally would make Dumbledore "twist" for you), so even if I 
probably disagree with this reading, I am at least clear on this 
part.

But I am not sure how Voldemort's beliefs about Snape contradict OFH!
Snape at all. Even IF Voldemort does NOT completely believed Snape 
story, the fact remains that he WAS welcomed to DE circle with 
opened arms. Whatever Voldemort underlying speculations about 
Snape's loyalty are, it does not matter as long as Snape is able to 
be  the loyal DE ( or play the part of such), so for now OFH!Snape 
gets what he wants, regardless of what Voldemort really thinks, now 
when Voldemort expresses his belief that Snape is really DD!man, 
then TO ME it would be different story.

Am I making some kind of sense? I feel like the argument slips away 
from me and does not flow, but have no idea how to make it less 
fragmentary.

Oh, and as long as I am at that subject, I may as well say that I 
read Dumbledore as "unconditionally trusting" man, or at least as 
the one who will do nothing at all to share his suspicions with 
anyone and therefore it does not really matter whether he trusts  
the person completely or trusts with reservations, because the 
practical result will be the same, he WILL give the person second 
chance in any event.

I wrote on it earlier that Dumbledore attitude towards Tom Riddle 
shows perfectly how fallible Dumbledore is ( to me only) in that 
department. He KNEW that Tom was a bully at eleven and still did not 
tell it to anyone, even not to Tom's Head of  the House. Sure, he 
wanted to give Tom a second chance, but who knows, maybe if warned 
other children were not so eager to get under Tom's charming 
influence.

To go back to Snape and Dumbledore, ot me it reads perfectly in 
character that Dumbledore would trusts Snape after Snape expressed 
his remorse and may be even nothing else, BUT I do think that there 
was some kind of additional reason, we don't know yet. I just don't 
see how Dumbledore's nature makes it harder for OFH!Snape to come to 
light.


> Jen: I really dig this idea and it coincides with my belief Snape 
> does have a personal motivation for joining Dumbledore's side, 
even 
> if it turns out to be revenge toward Voldemort for something done 
to 
> one of his loved ones. <SNIP>> Snape would be the least interested 
in the Good of all these people, 
> but I believe as long as he wanted to see the end of Voldemort 
then 
> he is able to join Dumbledore's side 'at great risk to himself'. 
He 
> may not buy Dumbledore's beliefs hook, line and sinker but he 
> believes in the end goal enough to be DDM.

Alla:

That is of course very possible. OFH!Snape also has variations - OFH!
DDM Snape as you quoted will be one of them.

I would dig that one too, but I am just not sure that at the Tower 
Snape was acting as DD!M Snape, or maybe he thought he was, but he 
is bound to realise the opposite.

I am also not sure I agree that everybody has personal motivations 
for joining the Order, or maybe they do, but I just read it 
differently.

Personal motivations to me mean that  the benefit will be only to 
that person and very few other people. Lupin is interested in 
werewolf rights, true, but it would benefit not only him, but many 
other werewolfs as well, Weasleys may be interested in peaceful 
world for themself and their family, but I think they also 
interested  in the peaceful world for everybody else.

If Snape joined  the Order, say to get revenge for  the fact that 
Voldemort killed his family, well, that is sure much better than if 
he would stay DE, BUT if his way of thinking stays the same as it 
was when he was a DE ( you know - that mudbloods should die, or that 
it is very cool to cause psychological and physical pain on other 
human beings - I am just speculating here, of course I don't know 
what Snape thinks), then Snape only gets half a cookie from me.


> 
> Jen, apologizing to Alla for not playing fair.
>
Alla:

Thanks SO much.


JMO of course,

Alla, for whom one of the best ways to be satisfied with Snape's 
punishment will be to see him begging forgiveness at Dumbledore's 
grave. :-)