Twist JKR?

Sun Oct 16 20:30:08 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 141712

> Jen: I think after finding out that a straight reading allows 
> speculation, most of my differences with your take on things are 
> probably personal opinion. 

Alla:

At least my version of OFH!Snape does allow speculation, it is just 
less speculation, that is all.

Allow me to quote Nora's 141634:

"OFH is really quite direct, because it's happy to let
Snape take actions for both sides--it then takes an intensely
skeptical approach towards his sincerity in all cases."

I really like it. Does it explain everything? NO, but it sure helps 
me explain a lot.Makes my life easier, so to speak ( I don't always 
want it to be easy, because I love speculating to my heart content, 
but sometimes I really do)
Oh, also as we established OFH! could go two different paths or even 
three - OFH!Snape who feels that his interests are best served by 
Voldemort alive and OFH! DDM! Snape AND Snape who really really just 
wants to be left alone by everybody.

Hmmm, have I just said something about making my life easier? :)

Jen:
Like for instance, you feel Snape is 
> getting what he wanted whether LV fully trusts him or not. I think 
> the seed of mistrust led Voldemort to force Snape's hand by 
> involving him in Dumbledore's death. So in my view OFH Snape 
> wouldn't be getting what he wanted, to indefinitely play both 
sides, 
> because Voldemort forced him to take sides and declare his 
*public* 
> loyalty. I personally don't believe the public persona Snape 
chose, 
> loyalty to Voldemort, is actually what he privately believes.

Alla:

Oh, sorry for bugging you with questions today, but do you mind 
explaning "Voldemort forced Snape's hand by involving him in 
Dumbledore's death" theory? Is that the one which argues that Snape 
really had no choice but to take the UV, because Voldemort somehow 
forced him to do it? Could you explain to me or maybe refer me to 
the post explaining how Voldemort forced Snape to take UV? 
Personally I think that Snape indeed made the ultimate choice when 
he took the UV. I said many times that I consider it to  be the 
idiotic choice when I am in my most charitable mood and  the 
treacherous choice,when I am not in the charitable mood, but I am 
not sure how Voldemort participated in Snape's making that choice? 
Some kind of mental connection, like zombie - Snape? Voldemort 
hypnotising him and saying "Take the Vow, Snape, take the Vow"?

> Jen:
> I guess I view the Tom Riddle deal in a different vein from Snape. 
> Giving an 11 year old boy a chance and allowing him to come to 
> Hogwarts and make a new life doesn't strike me as the same kind of 
> thing as allowing a known DE to live at Hogwarts with few 
questions 
> asked. For that reason I believe Snape's story was enough to allow 
> him a second chance, but not enough to prove his loyalty. 

Alla:

Those two cases are not exact, of course, but I do believe that they 
could be analogised by showing Dumbledore "modus operandi". He is so 
wise, that he does not share his decisions with anybody, he has no 
confidante, so he has nobody to brainstorm his decisions with, IMO.

Of course Tom Riddle had not committed that many sins at eleven as 
what Snape probably did when  he came back, BUT what he did to those 
children in the cave WAS pretty bad, no? Hadn't Dumbledore owed to 
his other students to keep  them safe from someone who showed the 
potential to be the psychopath already at such early age?

I am sure Dumbledore thought about all of this, right? And still he 
CHOSE to disregard all of it in order to give Tom Riddle second 
chance?

Don't you think that it may not be such a stretch to assume that in 
case of Snape, Dumbledore operated the same way? That Snape COULD  
be dangerous, but as long as he is remorseful, let's take him in?

Had I mentioned that I LOVE ESE!Snape too? :-)

> 
> Alla:
> > I just don't see how Dumbledore's nature makes it harder for OFH!
> > Snape to come to light.
> 
> Jen: I don't think it does until Snape had to prove his loyalty to 
> Dumbledore. Going back to face Voldemort when Snape didn't appear 
at 
> the graveyard was probably the final proof Dumbledore needed to 
> truly believe Snape was loyal to him. My opinion is an OFH Snape 
> would not have done that, he would have run away like Karkaroff 
the 
> minute he had to face the ugly music or gone to Voldemort and 
stayed 
> there. 

Alla:

This is another argument which I am not sure I agree with at all. 
Are you saying that leaving protection of Hogwarts  would be more 
comfortable for OFH!Snape than to stay there and do whatever thing 
Dumbledore asked him of? Isn't it possible that the moment Snape 
goes to another country, the british aurors will catch him and threw 
him back to AzkabaN? Besides, immigrating to another country and 
leaving everything you love, everything you build ( both material  
and non-material things) behind is really, really, really hard, even 
if you were not treated well in that country. Trust me on that 
one. :-)

Jen:

The only extenuating circumstance I see would be if Snape had 
> some golden motivation to continue playing both sides, which we 
> aren't privy to yet.

Alla:

Could be that too.

> Jen: <snip>
However, I'm really hoping JKR will go 
> with the belief Dumbledore exemplified, that allies come in all 
> shapes and sizes and sometimes we have to accept the least of our 
> brothers into the fold for Good to prevail.

Alla:

That was beaitufully said, actually.

> Jen, who is certain Dumbledore already forgave him but wouldn't 
mind 
> Snape finally realizing that and dealing with the pain of Truth.

Alla:

Oh, of course Dumbledore forgave him, I don't doubt that, I just 
don't want Snape to know that yet. :)

> Hickengruendler:
> 
> On this point we agree. I think the reason Dumbledore gave Harry 
was 
> basically correct, but there's more it, which Harry might have 
> learned if he hadn't interrupted Dumbledore. But, if Snape simply 
> managed to fool Dumbledore, what reason would JKR have to hold the 
> reasonable explanation back? 
<snip>

Alla:

Hee! Well, I am thinking that such reason exists, but I think it 
could be perfectly in character that it does not, that as I said 
above that Dumbledore would have trusted Snape if he just came back 
and said " Oh, Headmaster, I am SO sorry! Please forgive me!"

So, who knows, maybe there is no explanation coming than the one 
which we got.

JMO,
Alla

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