Twist JKR? (was:Re: Dumbledore's pleading...)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 141711

Alla:
> But I am not sure how Voldemort's beliefs about Snape contradict
> OFH!Snape at all. Even IF Voldemort does NOT completely believed
> Snape story, the fact remains that he WAS welcomed to DE circle
> with opened arms. Whatever Voldemort underlying speculations about
> Snape's loyalty are, it does not matter as long as Snape is able 
> to be  the loyal DE ( or play the part of such), so for now OFH!
> Snape gets what he wants, regardless of what Voldemort really 
> thinks, now when Voldemort expresses his belief that Snape is
> really DD!man, then TO ME it would be different story.

Jen: I think after finding out that a straight reading allows 
speculation, most of my differences with your take on things are 
probably personal opinion. Like for instance, you feel Snape is 
getting what he wanted whether LV fully trusts him or not. I think 
the seed of mistrust led Voldemort to force Snape's hand by 
involving him in Dumbledore's death. So in my view OFH Snape 
wouldn't be getting what he wanted, to indefinitely play both sides, 
because Voldemort forced him to take sides and declare his *public* 
loyalty. I personally don't believe the public persona Snape chose, 
loyalty to Voldemort, is actually what he privately believes.

Alla:
> I wrote on it earlier that Dumbledore attitude towards Tom Riddle 
> shows perfectly how fallible Dumbledore is ( to me only) in that 
> department. He KNEW that Tom was a bully at eleven and still did
> not tell it to anyone, even not to Tom's Head of the House. Sure,
> he wanted to give Tom a second chance, but who knows, maybe if 
> warned other children were not so eager to get under Tom's 
> charming influence.

Jen:
I guess I view the Tom Riddle deal in a different vein from Snape. 
Giving an 11 year old boy a chance and allowing him to come to 
Hogwarts and make a new life doesn't strike me as the same kind of 
thing as allowing a known DE to live at Hogwarts with few questions 
asked. For that reason I believe Snape's story was enough to allow 
him a second chance, but not enough to prove his loyalty. 

Alla:
> I just don't see how Dumbledore's nature makes it harder for OFH!
> Snape to come to light.

Jen: I don't think it does until Snape had to prove his loyalty to 
Dumbledore. Going back to face Voldemort when Snape didn't appear at 
the graveyard was probably the final proof Dumbledore needed to 
truly believe Snape was loyal to him. My opinion is an OFH Snape 
would not have done that, he would have run away like Karkaroff the 
minute he had to face the ugly music or gone to Voldemort and stayed 
there. The only extenuating circumstance I see would be if Snape had 
some golden motivation to continue playing both sides, which we 
aren't privy to yet. 

Alla:
> I am also not sure I agree that everybody has personal motivations 
> for joining the Order, or maybe they do, but I just read it 
> differently.
> 
> Personal motivations to me mean that  the benefit will be only to 
> that person and very few other people. Lupin is interested in 
> werewolf rights, true, but it would benefit not only him, but many 
> other werewolfs as well, Weasleys may be interested in peaceful 
> world for themself and their family, but I think they also 
> interested  in the peaceful world for everybody else.

Jen: That's a nice way to put it and I won't argue that. From what 
we've seen of the characters who have personal motivations as well 
as moral reasons to be part of the Order, then Snape would probably 
fall at the end of the line. However, I'm really hoping JKR will go 
with the belief Dumbledore exemplified, that allies come in all 
shapes and sizes and sometimes we have to accept the least of our 
brothers into the fold for Good to prevail. 

Alla: 
> If Snape joined  the Order, say to get revenge for  the fact that 
> Voldemort killed his family, well, that is sure much better than 
> if he would stay DE, BUT if his way of thinking stays the same as
> it was when he was a DE ( you know - that mudbloods should die, or 
> that it is very cool to cause psychological and physical pain on
> other human beings - I am just speculating here, of course I don't
> know what Snape thinks), then Snape only gets half a cookie from 
> me.

Jen: Hee! Well, that's something :). It's just a little harder for 
me to believe Snape could have lasted as long as he did on the 
straight and narrow if he didn't on some level believe his old ways 
were wrong. Not that it went so far as to change his personality, 
which will likely never get an upgrade.

> Alla, for whom one of the best ways to be satisfied with Snape's 
> punishment will be to see him begging forgiveness at Dumbledore's 
> grave. :-)

Jen, who is certain Dumbledore already forgave him but wouldn't mind 
Snape finally realizing that and dealing with the pain of Truth.