Which characters are dynamic?

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 141825

> >>Nora: 
> The note that I overwhelmingly read of Snape towards Harry is, 
> regardless of whether his actions (can be read to be) beneficial or 
> vindictive, is "you are a little shit, I have an accurate           
> estimation of who and what you are, and you are not special."

Betsy Hp:
The problem is that Snape often catches Harry when he's being a 
little shit.  So of course there are those types of interactions.  
However, that's not the only note Snape hits.  Snape tried, very 
hard, to be civil during the Occlumency lessons.  Harry did not.  
However, Snape answered the questions Harry asked, to the best of his 
ability.  In fact, he told Harry far more than any other adult.

But it's not the only note Snape displays.  It's the only note Harry 
expects of Snape, and so it's generally the only note Harry accepts 
as genuine.  But Harry, as usual when it comes to Snape, is wrong.

> >>Nora: 
> Special emphasis on how much Snape thinks he's right on #2, which   
> he tends to think about most people and things:
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
How do you figure that?

> >>Nora:
> I'd agree that Harry has a rather limited perspective on Snape,     
> although I'd still think it would be absolutely hilarious if        
> Harry's suspicions turned out to be fundamentally correct, finally.

Betsy Hp:
Well I know I wouldn't be laughing. <g>  I'd be more worried about 
that scenario if Slytherin was the house of evil so many had 
predicted it would be.  Thank goodness JKR nipped that particular 
theory in the bud!  So I'm hoping she's going in the direction of 
snap judgements and prejudicial thinking is not the best way to go.  
Or the whole fear of outsiders that so drives the WW.

> >>Nora:
> But Snape is probably misreading Harry, as well.

Betsy Hp:
But Snape is so often right about Harry.  It drives Harry crazy 
because Snape is one of the few adults to treat him like a naughty 
little boy when he's behaving like a naughty little boy.  (I loved it 
when Dumbledore *finally* made Harry take a bit of responsibility.)

> >>Nora:
> He *does* continually harp upon James
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
He doesn't actually.  I brought this up before in post #140547.  
Here's the relevant bit:

"Snape brings James up once in PoA (and I've given my theory on that
<g>). He says nothing about James throughout GoF that I could
find. He brings James up twice, that I found, in OotP. The first
time the insult was aimed directly at Sirius (Harry ignored it,
caught up as he was in Sirius's anger). The second time was when he
caught Harry in his pensieve and I think that was pure anger rather
than a need to hurt Harry. And then there were the two times in
HBP."

So that's five times in six years.  And one of those times had 
nothing to do with Harry, really.  I wouldn't define that as harping 
on James.  (Is this another example of theory building into canon 
that Neri pointed out earlier? <g>)

> >>Nora:
> even Dumbledore has commented upon Snape's relationship to Harry   
> being continually inflected by that.  [And here I thought you DDM! 
> theorists believed in Dumbledore no matter what he said.]

Betsy Hp:
I guess you thought wrong. <g>  I don't take everything Dumbledore 
says or does as from on high.  I think Dumbledore talking about the 
life debt in PS/SS did Snape's and Harry's relationship no favors.  
(Actually, I think his handling of those two was probably his biggest 
mistake.)  I'm sure he was just trying to help keep Snape's cover, 
but I think he should have gone a bit more generic at that moment.  
Maybe used Alla's "any teacher would have done the same" argument. 

> >>Nora:
> Is there any appreciation for Harry's sterling qualities, which all 
> the rest of the professoriate seem to pick up on?  Anything like    
> the love and comraderie shared with Dumbledore?  Grudging at best, 
> malicious at worst.

Betsy Hp:
Harry can be a charming boy, if he decides you're one of his.  Hagrid 
benefits from this, and Dumbledore sees it displayed.  But when he's 
not sure of you he's fairly withdrawn.  There's a reason all of 
Hufflepuff decided he was evil in CoS.  There's a reason so many of 
the student body were suspicious of his part in the death of Cedric 
Diggory.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the rest of the teaching staff see Harry.  
He's not the worlds best student, and other than DADA he doesn't 
really push himself.  He is polite and fairly deferential (unless he 
decides you're not one of his) so I'm sure he doesn't give them any 
problems in class.

But this is not the Harry Snape gets to meet.  Instead he gets the 
defiant, disrespectful, foolish risk taker.  So he treats Harry 
accordingly.  It's kind of a vicious cycle, actually.  And therein 
lies the tragedy, IMO.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Within the Potterverse, however, Snape is one of the more complex 
> > characters.

> >>Nora:
> I'd say potentially complex, because as I've harped on before, 
> Snape's complexity--being based on withholds--is the kind that can 
> be collapsed with a few revelations.  For instance, say that he     
> *is* ESE: he's not nearly as complex then, is he, because           
> his 'conversion' was not sincere.

Betsy Hp:
And as I've harped many times before, it's *not* all based on 
withholds. <g>  If Snape *is* ESE than his willingness to do anything 
for his Master is a complexity in and of itself.  He helped kill two 
of Voldemort's better servants.  Anything for his cover?  That's 
pretty cold-blooded and ruthless right there.  He managed to pull the 
wool over the eyes of the most powerful wizard in a century, which 
also speaks to an unbelivable amount of power.  And he got himself 
free reign to poke around in the "Chosen One's" head.  The cunning on 
display is amazing.  And all this while openingly showing his 
contempt for the WW's great hero.  Snape would be the best children's 
book villain ever.

> >>Nora:
> Or say that we find out he's had one major motivating reason for   
> everything he's done.  Less complex, in an instant...like how a     
> fraction reduces down.

Betsy Hp:
And again, I disagree.  For one reason (and it would need to be a 
powerful one) Snape chooses to leave the winning side made up of his 
friends and join the loosing side made up of his enemies.  He endures 
what he endures (and to spy on Voldemort would not be easy) in order 
for right to prevail.  This is actually the Snape that I see, and he 
is complex.  Especially if he is still friends with some of his 
enemies (see the Malfoys).

> >>Betsy Hp: 
> > Within the Harry/Snape relationship the problem, IMO, has always 
> > been Harry.  It's Harry who needs to change his view of Snape,   
> > not the other way around. 

> >>Nora: 
> I think at minimum it's mutual.  Snape has certainly shown minimal 
> signs of any kind of flexibility and adaptation in his views of 
> Harry.

Betsy Hp:
Again (surprise! <g>) I disagree.  Snape made an effort with the 
Occlumency lessons.  Harry made no effort at all.  Snape took Harry's 
hint about Sirius in Umbridge's office.  Snape followed through, 
Harry did not.  I'm sure Snape noticed Harry's lack of effort, which 
leads into....

> >>Nora:
> I find it hard to imagine that Snape has/could have the kind 
> of faith in Harry that Dumbledore had, for instance.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I agree.  I think Snape probably deviled Dumbledore like mad 
about the stupidity and recklessness of his special little 
Gryffindor. And I'm sure Dumbledore was quite amused for the most 
part and also probably brought the law down a time or two when he 
felt it necessary.

> >>Nora:
> Do any of us (especially you folks who rely so heavily upon        
> Dumbledore's judgement) think that DD is wrong in this?  If he's   
> not wrong, doesn't Snape need to change his view of Harry and      
> embrace him as the agent of Voldemort's downfall?

Betsy Hp:
Snape does work with Harry.  I think part of the reason he catches 
Harry in wrong doing so often is because he's ghosting around the 
castle trying to keep Harry safe from what ever baddie is out to get 
the boy.  And I think part of the reason he gets so frustrated with 
Harry is that *this* is the kid who's supposed to bring down the Dark 
Lord and he can't even put a simple potion together, can't even 
follow basic rules of safety, doesn't even try with Occlumency, and 
won't bother mastering a non-verbal spell.

If Harry is this much of an idiot (and Snape does catch him in some 
stunning moments of idiocy) it's no wonder Snape rides him so hard.  
For Snape that *is* embracing Harry as the agent of Voldemort's 
downfall.

Betsy Hp