Dumbledore's mistakes?/Les Miserables

[ellecain]

No: HPFGUIDX 141834

> > o> Alla:
> > > I would not have  brought eleven year old psychopath to the 
> school 
> > I 
> > > am in charge with, because I would be afraid that other people 
> may 
> > > be hurt by my decision.
> > > 
> > 
> > Elyse: (snipped)> > Who are you to decide whether an eleven year 
old is a psychopath?
> > I doubt a single psychiatrist would in his or her professional 
> > opinion (ie knowing they might be sued for it) would declare Tom 
> > Riddle a dangerous,unredeemable,psychopath,who should not be 
> allowed 
> > the privilege of education, based on that little interview.
> Alla:
> 
> Hmmm. Who am I to decide? I am the reader of the series, who as 
ANY 
> other reader has a right to decide how to label a fictional 
> character. Based on what I read about psychopathy Tom Riddle gives 
me 
> an impression of psychopath. Is it going to be hundred percent 
> correct label? Of course not, I am NOT a psychiatrist, but I don't 
> think I have to be for talking about fiction......heavily 
snipped...
 it is really not that important for me how to call 
> young Tom besides the fact that he was dangerous at such young age.
> What IS important to me is that Dumbledore KNEW that Tom was 
> dangerous and did not do anything about it, except deciding to 
keep 
> an eye on him  and apparently not doing a very good job out of it, 
> IMo.


Elyse: Exactly, when you and I read the books, we know that they are 
just books. We know that this is all in our imagination. So its very 
easy for us to say Tom Riddle is a psychopath.
But Dumbledore was vested with a HUGE responsibility. For him, it 
was a very difficult decision since it was all very real to him.
And he had absolutely no way of determining exactly how far gone 
little Tom was. Dumbledore was no psychiatrist either. How could he 
possibly know the terrible things that this child *might* do ten or 
twenty years in the future? Even DD says himself:
"Did I know then that I had met the most dangerous Dark wizard of 
all time? No I had no idea he was to grow up to be what he is."
(pg 258 in my book)

And what could he have possibly done about it if he knew? He wasnt 
the headmaster, he wasnt the minister for magic, and I'm guessing 
these are only people with the power to deny a wizard child the 
privilege of education. And if he had not allowed Tom Riddle to 
enter Hogwarts, he would have been a Dark wizard running amok in the 
Muggle world, which would surely have been more dangerous.



> 
> 
> Elyse: 
> > He may have certain qualities that point in this direction, yes, 
> but 
> > that could be because he never received proper guidance, never 
got 
> > the love, the moral and ethical persuasion that others did.
> > Is it too much to presume that he might make friends at Hogwarts 
> > where he would be among other wizards of his own kind?
> > IMO, this what Dumbledore believed or at the least, hoped for.
> > And based on this, Dumbledore chose to give him not his second 
> > chance, but his first one.
> 
> Alla:
> SNIP
> Oh, and I am NOT comfortable with many "essentialism" qualities of 
> Potterverse, but I do believe that JKR's world has  them, whether 
I 
> like them or not.

Elyse: I believe JKR's world has them too. But I sure wish she would 
clarify them cause we get ourselves into a right stew about them 
here at HPfGU...:-)

Alla:
> Second chances or first chances are good, BUT Dumbledore deciding 
to 
> give Tom Riddle a chance  lead to a disaster, IMO. I was just 
trying 
> to show that putting trust in one soul is  the thing which 
Dumbledore 
> does quite easily ,even if he suspects that it could hurt others.
> 
Elyse: Oh I have to disagree with you here! I dont think Dumbledore 
would let his personal trust or belief in  others interfere with the 
safety of his students. I think this is more than evident from the 
scene in HBP:
Harry says something along the lines of :"You're leaving the school 
tonight and I'll bet you havent even considered that Snape and 
Malfoy might decide to-"
And *this* is the point where DD becomes angry. Harry feels he has 
crossed an invisible line. And DD says:
"Please do not suggest that I do not take the safety of my students 
seriously, Harry"
 And hey, if he says that to his favourite boy, the Chosen One who 
he cares so much for, I say thats what he would have said to us too.
> 
> 
> Elyse:
> <SNIP> 
> If Dumbledore had 
> > warned them before he reached Hogwarts, would any teacher have 
> > believed him? They would have thought that Dumbledore was simply 
> > prejudiced; how could sweet,smart Tom Riddle be a psychopath?
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> All teachers seemed to be quite eager to trust Snape based ONLY on 
> Dumbledore's words, so yes, I think if Dumbledore queitly told 
> Slughorn to keep an eye on Mr. Riddle, I think many disastrous 
events 
> would have been avoided, because Slughorn would have been at least 
> listened out of respect to Dumbledore, if not because he would 
> genuinely believed so.
> 
Elyse: Heh Heh, this is so hilariously funny. All the time DD was 
screaming himself hoarse about how he trusted Severus Snape 
completely, it was only after his death that it was revealed how 
little they trusted Snape all these years. It seems, judging from 
his reaction, that Hagrid was the only one who really accepted DD's 
second-hand trust. 
And this was about Snape being a Death Eater,. Obviously, people are 
going to be sceptical about someone evil who undergoes a conversion 
to the good side. But how many people would have really accepted 
DD's claims that this nice quiet sweet intelligent boy was really a 
psychopath? 
They would have said the same stuff the Snape haters have done for 
all this time, and simply thrown his hands into the air and 
gone "You know what, the old man is Wrong! He's getting old, and in 
the matter of his prejudice towars that lovely boy, well his 
judgement is just a little biased thats all."
Thats is after all what Snape haters keep harping on. I'm sure it 
would have been the same if he declared to the teachers that Riddle 
was evil.


> Alla:
> 
> I don't really want to go into discussing Dumbledore's speech in 
OOP 
> again, but nowhere in that speech he says that he ahd no other 
> options, as far as I can remember. He said you would be  the 
safest, 
> where your mother blood dwells, he said that their DE out on the 
> loose, but as I said earlier, it was not hundred percent clear to 
me.
> 
> But yeah, I think that this is what JKR intended - to be left with 
> Dursleys or die, I just think that she did not convey it clear 
enough 
> AND without Dumbledore singing a different tune  in HBP, he comes 
out 
> ( to me only of course) in a bad light after OOP for at least not 
> interfering and checking up on Harry.
> 
Elyse: I agree with you one hundred percent on this one. OOP was the 
only time DD came out in a bad light for me, and I too think it was 
because of his behaviour towards Harry throughout the school year.
I am, like you, very relieved and slightly thankful JKR backtracked 
on this one in HBP. I was never comfortable with the Puppetmaster!DD 
scenario myself.


> Alla:
> You missed my point completely, I am sorry for  being unclear.
> The reason I wrote  the tirade about what I would not have done if 
I 
> were Dumbledore was to show that in many instances Dumbledore is 
> BETTER person than I am, but also in some instances his trust in 
> people has to be balanced with other issues, such as safety of the 
> other people he is responsible for.
> 
> I am NOT saying that he should not have given Snape a second 
chance ( 
> although when I am not in charitable mood, I happen to believe 
that 
> Snape failed that chance), I think it is a GOOD thing on 
Dumbledore 
> part, BUT I also think that it was irresponsible of Dumbledore not 
to 
> think about his students before he did so, IMO.
> 
> I am saying that Dumbledore with his tremendous connections 
> everywhere could have find a job for Snape for example somewhere 
in 
> the WW analogy of potion research institute, or something like 
that, 
> but to keep him away from children.<SNIP>
 Trust him? 
> Yes. Help him to find a way to make a living? Absolutely. But NOT 
> endager the students, because Dumbledore decided to give hima  
second 
> chance.

Elyse:  I think someone has already addressed this pointing out that 
Snape has never actually endangered students, but on the contrary, 
saved a number of lives.
But yes, I yeild to your argument that DD could have found a job for 
him somewhere else. (Although I shudder to think what kind of 
potions he might have brewed at that Potion Research Institute if he 
was inventing Sectumsemprs at fifteen) :-)


> Alla:
> To be fair, I think Dumbledore suffers from having to wear too 
many 
> hats, way too many -  He has different responsibilities as 
> Headmaster, as Leader of OOP and as spiritual leader of the light 
( 
> that mostly speculative title, but I think it is there - sort of 
lead 
> by example) and those responsibilities sometimes require to take 
very 
> opposing actions, IMO.

Elyse: Oh absolutely. I love the image of a burdened Dumbledore
carrying the weight of the wizarding world on his shoulders.
And yes these conflicting hats probably made him take the decision 
of keeping Harry in the Dark in OOTP and not telling Harry about the 
prophecy in book one. I think the Father Figure to Harry hat was 
probably responsible for most of those mistakes. 
With such huge responsibilities its no wonder he had no equals.

> 
> Alla:
> Oh, and I LOVE "Les Miserables". Talk about great story of  the 
> redemption. The difference why the story of Jean Valjan worked so 
> well for me as redemption story is because we SEE Valjan being 
> genuinely remorseful for his sins ( which IMO are so small and 
> insignificant in comparison to Snape's - he stole because he was, 
but 
> that is not the point)

Elyse: And hopefully we will see Snape being genuinely remorseful in 
the last book. And lets be optimistic (or delusional...) and say 
that Snape who was so used to "slithering out of action" did not 
really have any extremely horrible sins attached to his name...maybe 
we ought to gift him a copy of Les Miserables hmm? Or should we let 
Harry do that in book seven...;-)

Alla:
 AND  we see him being nice to all people  and 
> keep sacrificing his own happiness for Kosette  and Marius ( 
> spelling?). 

Elyse: Dunno bout the spelling but if Snape was DDM all along then, 
he we did see him make a LOT of sacrifices like saving Harry's ass, 
and Draco's too.

Alla:
I believed Valjan remorse because I read about it on the 
> pages over and over again, I cried when he died.
> 
> Going back to Snape, I think that his remorse is only hinted to in 
> very brief passing, everything else is just us filling out the 
blanks.

Elyse: Which book seven will hopefully clear up. I want to read 
about Snape's remorse over the pages again and again, and I am going 
to sit down with book seven only after ensuring I am surrounded by 
tissues ;-)

Elyse, who knows those tissues wont be wasted if Snape is ESE, cause 
we still have the Harry is a Horcrux theory to provide the 
waterfalls of tears.