[HPforGrownups] How good Dumbledore is?/Killing a person or soul/ What would DD want? Much shorter

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 141886

dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Alla:
> 
> I think JKR meant exactly what she said, frankly - that Dumbledore
> is an epitome of goodness  I am not trying to
> convince you of the opposite, but do want to challenge your examples
> of  I guess Dumbledore not being so good, or Puppetmaster!
> Dumbledore. ( if that is not you meant, I apologise) But of course I
> am biased on that matter, since I really, really, really do not like
> Puppetmaster!Dumbledore.

   KJ writes:
      Excellent post as always, Alla, and a good argument.  I don't 
think of Dumbledore as bad or evil. To me, he was the only one who did 
not just forget about Voldemort after Godric' Hollow. He knew that 
Voldemort would return, he knew that Harry would be the first order of 
business, and he has been searching and planning since before Harry's 
birth for the means to defeat Voldemort. He is not reactive, he is 
proactive.

     I don't see Dumbledore as a "Puppetmaster", so much, as one of the 
few individuals in the WW ready and willing to accept a situation and 
take the steps necessary to salvage it. He states in OotP that he had a 
plan, the plan involved Harry, and that considerable lives were 
depending on the success of the plan. It is implied that, in caring too 
much for Harry, it could put the plan in jeopardy. To me this screams 
"Cover your arse, Harry."

     I agree that Dumbledore is not biased against the Slyths. I think 
that he understands that because of their parents, they may not have the 
same choices as the other houses. I don't even think that he is 
particularly partial to any house, just the Trio.

> Alla:
> 
> Yeah, it seems like he does, BUT is it possible that he hopes that
> Snape will figure out things on his own ( just like JKR said that
> Dumbledore did not go to Hagrid thinking that Hagrid comes out of
> his home on his own).

  KJ writes:
    I don't know, Alla.  It all seems so logical to me that DD knew that 
Voldemort would rise again, and was making plans to deal with it. As he 
kept Snape in the same position for 15 years. It also makes sense to me 
that Snape would try to remain exactly as he was at the time of 
Voldemort's vapourization. When V. looked into Snape's mind, all he saw 
was solitary Snape, who still hates the same people, hates teaching, is 
only staying there because that is where his master sent him. He still 
hates the same people, he can show memories of trying to get Harry 
expelled. There is nothing in his mind that V. would not expect to see.

   Snape obeys Dumbledore implicitly, even when he makes it plain that 
he disagrees, or disapproves. All DD would have to do, is order Snape to 
stop being rank to Harry. I think that Dumbledore has to allow Snape to 
do this whether he approves or not knowing he would be sending him back 
to V. Snape did choose to go back to Voldie, and I agree that he has 
some serious favours to pay back, but he *was* apparently forced into 
doing something in HBP.

> Alla:
> 
> I LOVED his answer too, but for a different reason. I saw that
> Dumbledore LEARNED from his mistakes in OOP and was being truthful  
> with Harry. He is not G-d, so he cannot be sure that Harry survives,
> but he hopes so.

   KJ writes:
      But, compare this to telling a person to jump off a high 
cliff,(which is at least comparable to killing Voldemort), handing them 
a large plastic sheet, (which is comparable to the actual help Harry is 
given on how to succeed), and then, cheerily, telling him that you hope 
that the plastic sheet will help him to survive.:) I sometimes think 
that Harry must be thick as mud.

> Alla:
> (snip) but to me asking some to rip their soul means that DD
> is Manipulator with a capital M when I am in most charitable mood
> and I don't see him that way.

  KJ:
   I think that he has to be a manipulator. He does so as Chief Warlock, 
and as school administrator, he manipulated Fudge, and we see some sign 
of it in the quarrel Trelawny has over Firenze. He has to make her want 
to stay without causing Firenze to leave. Manipulation is not a dirty 
word, necessarily. It's a requirement of DD's job.

   Also, just idle speculation, if Harry is an accidental horcrux, 
splitting his soul, especially if he has a piece of V. in there, might 
be what allows him to survive. If Harry could make a horcrux out of the 
voldie piece and then smash it like a bug, it would shorten book 7 
considerably.

   Plus, a question that I posted before, but has not been answered: Why 
is it that no one on the list is at all concerned about killing viable 
soul pieces. He has already killed one without knowing what it was, and 
Dumbledore killed one. Why is it of concern that Harry might split his 
soul killing Voldemort, but there is no concern about the destruction of 
soul parts? I am interested in your opinion on this. Presumably killing 
a person does not destroy the soul, merely the earthly body. Harry has 
been specifically sent after Voldemort's souls.
KJ