CHAPDISC: HBP 2, Spinner's End

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 142051

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 
> 2, Spinner's End.
> 
> 
> Summary:
>  This appears to be the same day as chapter one, but in a very 
> different location. A dark mood is set at once with the description 
> of a disused mill, deserted buildings, and a dirty river. Words 
> like "shadowy", "ominous" and "no sign of life" round out the 
> setting. 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> 1. Bellatrix kills a fox, thinking it could be an Auror. Does she 
> suspect Snape's home is being watched, or is she always looking over 
> her shoulder for an Auror? Do you think all DEs would be this 
> trigger happy, or is it just Bella?
> 

bboyminn:

Others have covered this nicely. I think several factors come into play. 

First, Bella has just escaped from Azkaban, that has to have left her
a little jumpy. Given her reputation, and being an escaped convict,
it's not wise for her to be out in public. Although, this dim dreary
neighborhood, could hardly be considered 'public'. 

Second, the OotP Ministry of Magic-Dept of Mysteries fiasco did not go
well. Bellatrix was one of the few things Voldemort managed to salvage
from the operation, though I'm quite sure he is very displeased with
Bella, and that he /demonstrated/ that displeasure on the only person
he had available. 

Third, independant of the Auror and Law Enforcement office being after
her, I'm sure Bella has made more than her share of enemies amoung the
general wizards populations. I suspect if a wizard saw her and killed
her on the spot, the Ministry would be more likely to give him a medal
than punish him.

Short version, she has more than enough reasons to be jumpy, and more
than enough reasons to 'shoot' first and ask questions later.


> 2. The neighborhood sounds deserted, except for some streetlights 
> that are still lit and the presence of food wrappers at the river's 
> edge. What can our RW sociologists tell us about this neighborhood
> in the late 90's?
> 

bboyminn:

London is a huge and diverse city, in addition to being a city with a
VERY long history. I suspect neighborhoods are falling into decline
and are being rebuilt all the time. I suspect that, as others have
pointed out, this is a working class neighborhood (small houses) that
has fallen on hard times. Given the outlandish real estate prices in
London, and the fact that Snape would only be there a few month over
the summer, I suspect that this is the best he could do and as much as
he needed. 

I doubt that it is his childhood home. I suspect it is merely a house
he bought or leased as a residence when school is not in session.

> 3. Bella knows Narcissa is going to visit Snape, but she is caught
> by  surprise ... at the location. She ... doubts that any of "our
> kind" has ever set foot there. ... How long do you think Snape has 
> been using this location?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Bella's comment about 'our kind' means rich and priviledged.
She sees herself above the petty mundane lives of commoners, muggles,
and other riff-raff. She would never lower herself to being in a
shabby neighborhood like this, and certainly, at least in her mind,
would never live in such an undignified area.

As to her unfamiliarity with the area; being friends, the Malfoys
might know where Snape lives, and I could see Lucius, with noticable
distain, as having been there, but I severly doubt that Narcissa or
Draco would have ever visited. Still, having been there or not, it
seems reasonable the Narcissa would at least know where Snape lived.
Bella on the other hand has been in prison, and would have no reason
or occassion to know where Snape lived.

Given the number of books there, Snape is either borrowing someone
else house, or he has been settle into the house for a long time. So,
I suspect this is his premanent 'away from Hogwarts' residence. 

One small aspect of uncertainty, when we meet Slughorn in the house he
is 'borrowing', it seems he has brought an awfull lot of stuff with
him for someone who moves so often. I believe even the piano was his,
and he moved it from location to location. That somewhat warps the
preception that Snape has been in his house a long time. If Slughorn
can move a piano and more so easily, the it wouldn't be that hard for
Snape to move his precious book collection. 

Still, I'm going with the idea that this is Snape's permanent summer home.


> 4. Snape's tiny sitting room is lined with leather bound books and 
> contains a threadbare sofa, an old armchair and a rickety table. It 
> had the "feeling of a dark, padded cell." ...
> 

bboyminn:

I think the 'padded cell' comment was a narrative /visual/ and really
has no deeper meaning. With the walls lined with black and brown bound
leather books, I'm sure it did look very reminiscent of a padded room.
Especially when you consider that the impression is that EVERY
available wall surface including the door upstairs is covered with
books. Given is size and the walls completely covered with the spines
of leather books, again, I'm sure the impression was very much like a
padded room. So, just discriptive narrative with no hidden meaning.


> 5. Narcissa is described as having a note of hysteria in her voice 
> and the look of a drowned person. She then enters a room that has
> the feeling of a padded cell.  What does that tell us about 
> Narcissa? How does that fit with her actions later in this chapter?
> 

bboyminn:

Again, I don't see much significants to the 'padded room' comment.
Narcissa, given her worries about Draco, herself, and her husband has
every right and every reason to be slightly hysterical. 

Narcissa is a woman of priviledge and wealth, she has never had to do
anything for herself in her life beyond her wifely duties. She has
been taken care of all her life, and now there is no one to take care
of her, even worse, she now has the responsibility, but few of the
necessary resource, to be the care giver. That's a lot of pressure on
such a 'refined' 'genteel' woman.


> 6. Snape, Narcissa and Bella drank a toast with blood-red wine. ...
> Elf-made wine doesn't sound too safe either. ... Do you think this 
> was just setting the magical mood, or was JKR waving a flag?
> 

bboyminn:

I see no significant to the 'blood red' color of the wine other that
narrative description. As to house-elf wine, I would assume that that
would be very fine wine. Elves take serving humans very seriously; it
is at the core of their existance, and I've always imagined that
anything made by a House-Elf to be of the finest quality.

Now, there may be other elves and elf-like creatures in the HP wizard
world that fit the reputation of being untrustworthy tricksters, but
House-Elves would not be counted amoung them.


> 7. This is a serious chapter, with lots of dark images. It's 
> informative too, but it's difficult to decide which information is 
> truth and which is deception. What images or feelings made an 
> impression on you? How do they affect your interpretation of the 
> story? 
> 

bboyminn:

In some sense, I saw Snape's /revelations/ as blatant responses to fan
speculation. In otherword, JKR attempt to put may fan rumors to rest
and clear up any plot points. But that was just my preception. I
suspect it was merely time in the story for these question to be
answered and for the plot to move forward. Certain ground had to be
covered within the confines of the story, and this was a way for JKR
to cover that ground.

As to which is truth and which is misdirection, we may never know. I
personally don't think Snape knew the plan/task at all. I think he was
playing the spy-game, and by saying he knew, he hope that would free
up Bella and Narcissa to reveal some details.

As far as gut-feeling reactions, when I read the story the first time,
I'm so eager to find out what happens next, that I hardly allow myself
time to react. I remember wondering what the future consequences of
the UV would be, I saw that as a great mystery, and of course, I knew
that wasn't the end, the UV would certainly come back into the story
again.


> 8. Narcissa asks Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow and Bella 
> is "astonished" that he agrees. It ...is obviously very serious. 
> We've seen that magical contracts have serious consequences.... 
> None of us can really understand why Snape agreed, ...
> 

bboyminn:

MY thoughts on the UV are well know, at least by those who bother to
read my posts. I see this whole magical Vow process to be riddled with
loopholes. It's like a genie granting a wish. True they do grant
wishes, but they are tricksters, and will prevert even the slightest
vagueness to their advantage, and very much to the disadvantage of the
wisher. 

When your life is at stake, you make sure the terms of the Vow are to
your advantage. If you are making the Vow, you want it a vague and
general as possible because that leaves you way to interpret it to
your advantage. For example, if Snape had maintained the /intent/ to
kill Dumbledore, could he have lived another 100 years without
consequence, simply sustained by murderous intent but no actual
action. That seems to fulfill the 'task'. If you are the person
requesting the Vow, you make sure it is a clear and specific as
possible to make sure you get what you want.

Narcissa asks Snape to help look after Draco, and Snape agrees. The
first two Vows are very vague and general, and are exactly what Snape
expected. But then Narcissa throws in the third Vow, which is more
serious. One that I'm sure Snape would like to get out of, but he is
still playing the spy-game, and he can't afford to tip his hand now.
So with no clear way out, he takes the third Vow, a vow which in my
opinion is highly subject to interpretation, and therefore, only
marginally binding. (see the example above)


> 9. (Thanks to Carol for this question): Like "The Other 
> Minister," "Spinner's End" is written from a point of view other
> than Harry's. But while "Minister" uses the usual third-person 
> limited-omniscient narrator, who sees through the eyes of the 
> Muggle Prime Minister rather than Harry's, "Spinner's End" 
> dispenses with a point-of-viewcharacter altogether. 
> 

In GoF, JKR very effectively shifted the point-of-view and brought the
point-of-view back to Harry very smoothly. The standard 'Harry'
point-of-view is good, but it does have limitations. There are times
when the story calls for another point-of-view and in every case I
think JKR has handled it nicely. 

She had to use a new character point of view in the Prime Minister's
office because Harry isn't there. It was a good chapter and I greatly
enjoyed it. She had to use a very limited neutral observer
point-of-view in the "Spinner's End" chapter because, as others have
pointed out, being inside the head of any of these characters would
have given too much away. So to convey the information she had to
convey, and to point the plot in the direction it had to go, she used
the only effective POVs.

> ...edited...
> 
> 
> Potioncat who would like to thank SSSusan and Carol for their 
> assistance!
>

Questions added by Meri-

Just a couple of my own questions (hope you don't mind potioncat!):

- Who was watching whom? Was Snape there to keep Wormtail that ever
loving screw up from getting in to too much trouble? Or was Wormtail
assigned to, ahem, tail the double agent and make sure everything
was kept on the up and up? I wonder if LV would have placed Wormtail
there if he didn't think the rat man could handle Snape. And I am
also wondering what happened to the rat man when Snape went back to
school.


bboyminn:

To get a good sense of why DE characters do what they do, I think you
need to read the 'Bartimaeus Trilogy' by Stroud. In this book, the
magicians run the government and Britian is the most powerful country
in the world. Just a few small problems.

In this alternate wizard world, all wizard/magicians are like Death
Eater in that they are all trying to be 'honored above all others'.
They are posturing, backstabbing for postion and favor, constantly
trying to get ahead by stepping on the backs of their colleagues. 

In 'Golems Eye' there is an unknown magical monster on the loose, but
no one is concerned about actually catching the monster. They are all
trying to come out of it looking good, and trying to make all their
colleagues look bad. It's all about rank and position and favor; and
the guy granting the 'favor' is playing them all against each other.
So, the main point is that there is so much posturing and backstabbing
that no one every gets around to doing their job.

That's how I see the Death Eaters. That's why I think anyone who
thought about it would see that Voldemort will create a wholly
disfunctional society if he wins. Everyone will be fighting so hard
for position and favor, that no one will be trying to get the job
done, regardless of what the job is. Motto: If you can't lift yourself
up, then push everyone else down.

So, how does this apply to Wormtail and Snape? I think Voldemort
simply warehoused Wormtail. In general, he is of no use, but that
doesn't me he might not be useful at some point in the future. So,
Snape is given the job of babysitting Peter/Wormtail. However, since
everyone is psychotically eager to 'be honored above all others',
Wormtail would sell Snape down the river in a second. I don't think
that is why he is there. But, Voldemort is the one who grants the
'favor', and he is playing everyone against everyone to his own
advantage. So, as a secondary benefit, Wormtail may find out something
about Snape, and eager for favor, he would reveal it to Voldemort. But
overal, I think Wormtail is simply out of the way for now.


Meri:
- Bella as a nickname for Bellatrix is now cannon, if it wasn't in
OotP. But Narcissa being called Cissy (Sissy? I don't quite
remember)? Does anyone else think that was a mite sugary? Or has the
Won-won incident left a bad taste in my mouth?

bboyminn:

Nicknames like this are hold overs from when these characters were
kids. We all had nicknames in my family, mostly assigned by my
maternal grandmother. My brother was 'Stinky', I was 'Stuffin' which
is a variation of Stephen (pronounced with an 'F') which is a
variation of my real name Steven. Now, no one today would ever call me
Stuffin, but a name variation like Cissy for Narcissa could carry over
into adulthood. That's not much different than calling William, Bill
or Will. Or if we take it to the next level, using names like Willie,
Billie, and Stevie.

Just a few thoughts, hopefully some of them coherent.

Steve/bboyminn