Academic dishonesty (was "Apologies and responsibility")

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 139387

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:
> Matt wrote:
> <snip> But ask yourself this: If Harry had gone to the library and
> found some better textbook with more modern formulas for the
> potions, and then had extrapolated from those -- or simply copied 
> those down to use in class -- would you think that was dishonest?
> Would he have been obliged to tell Slughorn how he arrived at the 
> improvements, or would it be enough that he found them from sources 
> accessible to everyone?  <snip>

> Carol responds:
> I don't know about RL science classes, but students who use outside
> sources in an English class are required to cite them in endnotes 
> and a bibliography. Not to do so is plagiarism, punishable by 
> expulsion on the university level ... The ideas are not Harry's. He 
> is failing to "cite his source." That's cheating in my view.
> 
> Carol, sorry to use up a post on this topic but unable not to respond

bboymin:

Sorry Carol, but I'm going to have to go with Matt on this one. There
is a BIG difference between writing an essay for English class and
preforming a practical experiment in Chemistry or Physics class. 

Although, I admit you are correct if we are talking about English.

In potions class the only judgement is the final result. If we
transfer that to Chemisty or Physics, as long as you are judged on the
results and are not required to write a paper on the experiment, I
think outside reference sources would be allowed. The goal seems to me
to learn how to perform a task, and to understand the nature and
interaction of the substances present in the experiment, not to
specifically follow a set of instruction. Note that Snape always wrote
HIS instruction on the board, he never had them reference a book to
create a potion.

However, if Harry were required to write an essay on the
experiment/potion when he was finished, then he certainly would be
obligated to site the reference materials he used. If he failed to do
so, his offense would not be cheating in the experiment/potion, but
simply failing to site relevant references, and failing to site
relevant references in this case would not be plagiarism in my opinion.

I really don't see what Harry did as cheating. I suspect the teacher
wouldn't have a problem with other student using other reference
material in class to create specific potions. I also suspect that most
of those students were just too lazy to do it. Although, Hermione
would have been likely to use outside references, I think she fell
into a mind set that put her so against Harry using that annotated
book, that she held ridgedly to the assigned textbook, and never
considered the possibilities.

One small point, I think the teacher would have allowed into class any
resonable reputable outside reference, though I suspect he would have
been hesitant to allow handwritten notes from a former student. He
main concern would have been the reliability of the material. However,
once establish as reliable, I don't see a problem with those notes.

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn